How to spot a good nursery

[alamel]

This is my first time on Mumsnet and I'd be really grateful for advice on how to find a good nursery. We are thinking of sending our son (10 months) to a nursery for 1-2 afternoons a week but it is really hard to see past the happy, bright presentations each nursery gives (!)and spot differences between them. Unfortunately, all the mums we know have access to work creches so we don't have any local word of mouth to rely on.

message withdrawn

Don't be too concerned with facilities etc. Staff turnover and the manager's attitude is more important ime (we've used two- poles apart- one big chain, fantastic facilities- shouldn't have been left in charge of dogs imo- now we use a very small friendly nursery, the owner is the manager- and the children are loved and cared for).

Gut feeling every time.

Turn up unannounced is one of the best ways to really see a nursery - they may turn you away, but you do get an idea of the saecurity and staff attitudes.
Staff turnover is important. Also how they adapt to individual needs.
You can check out the OFSTED reports online, also speak to any parents who are there when you visit.
HTH.

Jimjams, how did you discover that the first nursery you chose wasn't right? 'cos my main concern is that we pick a place which on the surface looks great and then if ds isn't happy, we won't know because he's too young to talk (although to be fair he is quite good at making his displeasure felt at home already ).

Long list alamel. Ds1 is autistic- although that wasn't known when he started the nursery. He was quite sociable but didn't really get circle time. He also had trouble using a knife and fork (still can't and he's 5 next month- he's dyspraxic) Was quite keen to sit a nd read books. Anyway first problem was when I picked him up screaming as they hadn't let him have pudding as he wouldn't use a knife and fork for his chicken nuggets and chips (he f couldn't! And i had explained that to them and they said it wasn't a problem). Then they decided he was odd and wanted a meeting with me. Before the meeting I went to my HV (I had some concerns as well- and she referred him to speech and language). I went into the meeting fully expecting them to say that I had done the right thing. But no I was told it wasa my fault h wasn't talking (must still be my faulst as he's 5 now and not talking) and that if I thought he was remotely normal then I was kidding myself (actually I wasn'ty saying he was normal I told them I had my own concerns and he had been referred on). I asked to read the notes on him- and found that they wrote things like "Painting. A approached the painting and looked interested, then walked away. Conclusion A not interested in painting" How about A wanted to paint but needed help getting going!

Final straw was going to collect him one day and finding him sat in a room by himself on a chiar while all the children were playing next door. NO-one was tlaking to him - he was just singing twinkle twinkle to himself (he was 22 months). I was told "he likes sitting on a chair" FFS.

Heard loads of horror stories afterwards with the way they treated "normal" kids. ONe mother cfound the manager screaming "you horrible horrible boy" at a child - that coud be heard down the corridor. Another little boy (funnily enough a very quiet little boy that used to play with my son) was screamed at for wetting himself when he was 2 and a half.

Heck. I'm still angry about it now. He hasn't eaten meat since that chicken nugget incident- or fish. Autistic kids have long memories.

I was VERY nervous about putting him into a nursery again. After taking him out I used to put him oin the gym creche once a week where he had a lovely time and the girls were all very kind. They used to say "oh he's no trouble we like having him in". (still no idea he was autistic).

When he was almost 3 he started a mainstream nursery again. By now we knew he was probably autistic. The OFSTED report had me in tears as it mentioned that the children had learned nursery rhymes in makaton so an autistic child attending could join in (very different from being left in a room on a chair). It's been wonderful. Very caring, he stil goes part time (and part time to school). I thought I'd never trust another nursery again, but I've never had a moments doubt about this place (and the manager has had me sobbing on her shoulder a few times).

By the way he went to the first nursery from 18 months to 22 months.

jimjams that's so grim. you trust these people with the most precious thing in the world - how dare they treat him like that.

I think its the sort of place- where had they know he was autistic I would have been told they were "full".

At the time though the stupid thing is he was very very easy. He was very content, very passive, very good at amusing himself, not at all agressive to other children, and very affectionate. He's much harder work now! That's why the gym creche found him so easy- he didn't ask for anything or demand anything (and it was pretty much free play so there were no adult demands on him).

Anyway I well and truly pissed the manager off by telling her I didn't think it was appropriate for her to armchair analyse my son- that he had been referred to the professionals and they would be assessing him. (That went down like a lead balloon but honest to god there was no need for it I was not presenting as a mother in denial- by this stage I was sobbing and they still carried on (manager and deputy this is) "he must talk he must he has to- what if he gets trapped somewhere and he can't talk- what's going to happen. You must be talking over him and stopping him talking". FFS.

Now I would complain like mad and write to everyone I could think of. Then I was very new to it all and just a mum who was very worried about her son.

Actually alamel- that's the criteria I use now. If a nursery/school is good with complex special needs then I know its a good place (for my "normal" son as well). To successfully accomodate a child with autism/ADHD/cerebral palsy/Down's Syndrome etc- they have to give a little bit more, and care a little bit more (as they're going to have to do some fighting with the authorities to get the help they need). If they do that for their SN kids they do that for their "normal" kids as well. Their just seems to be a bit more caring ime.

If children with SN myseriously disappear then I would say don't touch the place with a barge pole. it's a kiddie holding centre. Strong langauge but that's how I would describe my experience.

Also when they had the meeting with me they wanted answer a series of questions. Obviously they thought I was a useless mother. I was sooooo tempted to write "went to pub- left A outside with packet of crisps". As that's obviously what they thought I was like.

In fact I have them here. Since this is proving quite cathartic here they are:

Describe a day at home
What does A play with most?
How long will A play on his own without interaction?
What words does A say?
What activities do you do at the weekend?
How does A relate to friend?s children?
How does A let you know if he wants or needs something?
Describe A behaviour at meal times
Can he use a fork and spoon
Where does he sit when he eats.
What is A?s sleeping pattern?
Does A enjoy being outside?
Do you encourage A to respond to questions?
Do you encourage A to be independent?
What are your main concerns and why do you have them?
Reply to the last one is fairly interesting:
"I didn?t have any concerns until A was about 16 months and someone suggested he wasn?t making eye contact. I talked through it at the time with my Mum and friend Helen (George?s mum- who is extremely honest and also worked as a nanny for 12 years). The both didn?t have any concerns althoughI did also visit a HV. The HV said his eye contact seemed fine, his development seemed appropriate and this "friend" who made the original suggestion sounded like a friend I could do without.

Since then I have probably over analysed his behaviour. He is immature in some ways- especially with communication, but he isn?t obsessive, he isn?t fussed by routine and he isn?t losing skills. He was the last in his antenatal group to reach out, the last to sit up, the last to crawl and the last to walk. When I was visiting mother and toddler groups yes he was sat by himself- but he was the only one not crawling. His father?s development was extremely similar. His father was also an observer rather than a doer and appeared to watch until he was absolutely sure he could do something perfectly, when he would just do it. A appears to be the same. He also ahead of his peers in holding a tune, concentration and patience- these just tend to be less noticeable. He may appear not to be taking an interest in the other children, but I?ve seen him get home and do things that I haven?t shown him (e.g. painting, "twinkle twinkle hands? At Monkey music when he is given a drum he starts to play it, until the music starts and all the other children join in when he watches, and then starts again when everyone stops. He is a little different from other children, but I think it is a mixture of a shy, quiet personality and being a bit behind in expressive language skills. I have spoken to the HV today who has referred him to speech therapy- she said he may not need it, but the waiting list is so long he may as well be referred now and then it can always be cancelled. She said even if he fails his 2 year check they usually give the children another 3 months to catch up at least. Considering that 5 months ago he couldn?t even walk I suspect he will catch up soon. I do worry, but people who know him well (and have worked with autistic children) such as my mum and my friend Helen, see him as being a quiet little boy, who proceeds at his own pace. He is happy and content and rarely complains- even when he was covered from head to foot with an infected eczema he hardly complained ? as my GP said "look at him and he?s still smiling?"

A isn?t a performer and isn?t pushy. If lots of children are running up and down the slide he wouldn?t join in, not because he doesn?t want to but because it involves being pushy.

In summary I only get worried when people raise concerns. Usually these are laid to rest by people who know him well.

I?m a little concerned that these questions appear to be along the ?Does Archie have enough stimulation at home?" line- I hope you can see by these replies that he does."

Now I can't believe I agreed to sit down and answer those questons- rather than tell them to shove their stupid nursery up their arse! Anyway I think my reply to the last one shows that a)I was not in denial- even mentioned that I had worried about autism and talked about it wth people and b)that I was being perfecty reasonable.

Sorry alamel- I think you've opened a can of worms I haven't spoken about this for years. I feel awful now reading the questions and realising that he must have been completely confused with what was going on.

Perhaps you could "jump" a few parents outside gates (as opposed to inside where they may be less likely to utter criticism).

Also I agree that staff turnover is a HUGELY important. If the staff don't feel like hanging around would you want your child there.

Word of mouth has to be best - along with your instinct - so do try to catch some parents.

Jimjams - you poor thing. What a terrible experience but hopefully it has been helpful writing about it! Since I am totally neurotic I'm now going to worry about the list of questions the nursery gave you and panic about whether I am doing enough. ds is not going to know what's happened to him today - we're going to have so much stimulating interaction

oh no don't alamel! Sorry it all came out! I think they must have thought that I totally ignored him or something (the independence stuff was because he was so bad with cutlery- we now know that's becuase he's dyspraxic (and autistic- can't copy). Don't worry it's normal for people to blame the mother's for developmental problems. I'm lucky really as they're the only people who have done that to me.

I was serious early about nusery's attitudes to SN- if they're good I think you can guarantee you have a caring place.

I'd go along with the staff turnover angle too - especially if you are only thinking of a couple of afternoons a week as otherwise he could end up being seemingly perpetually amongst strangers. For the same reason I'd tend to opt for a smaller nursery over a large one, so that he gets recognised as an individual in his own right, not lost amongst a crowd of others, both in terms of his prescence and their perceptions.

Some of the other things which were important to us were:

The amount/variety of outdoor activity which was available to the children (the supposedly "best" nursery in town is by a main road and the only outdoor facility they have is a small decked area which can't be more than about 4m x 3m). As a quirky point I'd say that a nursery which asks you to send your child with wellies and waterproofs is better than one which doesn't

Their policy on sickness, etc (some will send them home for a single cough, sneeze or slightly sloppy nappy, others are happy to have them if they are otherwise well in themselves).

The ages and experience of the staff (not just their qualifications). Having a range, not just all young girls straight out of college, gives some variety, and in any case some children will settle better with an older carer.

Chain or independent? I like the fact that the owner of our nursery is also the person who runs it, as they have a vested interest in being "good" and keeping your custom. I'm not convinced that the same motivation is always there with the chains (although you could argue that being in a chaing imposes some kind of set standards).

Funnily enough the "first impressions" stuff - how smart it is, how new the toys are, etc - didn't really figure in our decision. In fact if we'd gone by those criteria we wouldn't have chosen the place we use now.

It's horses for courses though - so go with your own instincts as to what you want for your child. At least one person I know would be horrified if their child came home from nursery having got muddy, whereas I'd assume that if he came come perfectly clean every day he probably hadn't been having much fun. It doesn't necessarily mean that either of the nurseries we use are better/worse than the other, just that they happen to be more suited to our differing priorities.

Re: assessing a nursery -- take your child with you and see how they react to him.

I rejected one nursery for ds (then about 12 months) when I took him to a nursery in the buggy, and they suggested I left him in the buggy in the hall while I looked round (he wasn't asleep, or anything).

At the nursery we ended up going to the workers spoke to him more than to me at our initial visit. Lots of staff, all staff interacting with all children, not just their designated 'key worker' children. Lots of art displays up, and the displays changed regularly.

Just go by your feeling, in the end. Also, if you're feeling really scheming you could phone up the local schools (private or state) and ask them where most of their intake come from. They may even give you some useful opinions if you get chatting to them.

Oh girls, some of these stories sound terrible. How dare they?

I am new to this (first pregnancy) and am trying to plan what will I'll do. Thinking of moving back home (to Scotland - currently in London) and maybe go part time at work if I can. How do you find out what nurseries there are and how much they cost etc? Just trying to work out a realistic budget of how much we would need to earn between us to cover a mortgage and living costs & childcare etc.

I just don't know whre to start. Everyone keeps telling me babies are mega expensive - and I'm not sure what I need to be aware of. My sister cheered me up though and said that yes they are expensive, but you just manage somehow.

I'd go online, or have a look through the phone book and ring some up and ask for details. You do get a grant in most areas from about the age of 3 which gives a certain number of free nursery sessions.

Jimjams, that actually happened to me - unborn DS first on the list for the big brand name nursery, but four months later when I went to confirm the place, the same list was now mysteriously full, with siblings all born very pre-term I assume. Only difference? A was born with Down Syndrome. I was very naive, didn't make a fuss or even try too hard to get my £50 registration fee back, but without a doubt they were frightened by the 'SN' tag. 'Happy Times', definitely one to avoid.

That's terrible Sinclair- it happened to someone on the special needs board as well with an autistic son.

The (mainstream) nursery my son is at now did the opposite- the manager/owner let him jump the waiting list

Definitely agree with taking your child with you to the nursery if you can and relying on gut feeling. The first nursery ds went to (at 9months old), we'd been around a few and the kids didn't look interested, the nurseries looked dingy and ds was hardly noticed by the staff. On the one we chose, they welcomed him in, helped me with the pushchair, wiped his nose (before even I'd noticed it was running!) and entertained ds as much as tell me details about the nursery. We were very happy there for just over a year.

When we moved, I looked around 3 nurseries. Two had tremendous facilities, looked great on the surface, but something just didn't feel quite right (couldn't put my finger on why). Ds was being very stranger-phobic at the time anyway (due to the stress from the move). Went to see the 3rd feeling quite despondent as I knew it wasn't my first choice, the equipment was a lot older. BUT the staff were more "mature", were genuinely interested in ds and ds IMMEDIATELY left my side and went over to play while I chatted to the nursery head. I signed up within 15 minutes there and I forgot to ask most of the "proper" questions I was supposed to ask! (I had prior to visit checked the OFSTED though, so not completely blind!) Again, this nursery has been absolutely fantastic - no regrets whatsoever.

PotPourri, this site is probably a good starting place for nurseries if you move back to Scotland: Scottish Nurseries . If you are coming to Edinburgh let me know and I can recommend a few (and not recommend even more)

PotPourri,

for info on nurseries, check out this
Type in the town or postcode for the area you want and the type of childcare you want and it should give you info about them, including (sometimes) the cost.

Speaking of recommendations, can anyone recommend a good nursery(s) around North London (East Finchley/Muswell Hill)?

Good thread- I've seen two this week, for ds in August.

First one nice and spacious, answered my questions, shown round by room leader- about 23, but ds would be one of 30. In a small industrial area- council offices, like environmental health.

Second one the owner/manager- who showed me round, ds one of fourteen, less space- but less children. Seemed less organised, but friendlier, and staff were older. Good sized play area, in a residential area, gardens with flowers the children planted. Offered to give me half- price for school holidays when I wouldn't be using it.

Main thing putting me off no.1 is that they had swings in play-area. Nice swings mind you- tp activity, but I'm really wary with swings, (my dad's cousin was killed at 3 by a swing) especially with a crowd of kids playing.

Am really interested in the sn question. Going to check out this further in their websites.

As I'm writing I'm making up my mind for no.2, so this had been good , thank you for starting this.

Sammac, how old is your son? 30 people to a class seems really large to me but then I haven't seen many nurseries yet so maybe I'm being naive.