I feel detached from dd. I've realised it tonight and need to get it all out.

[MishMooshAndMogwai]

This was my original thread that sparked it all off today...

Dd doesn't know how to join in

I think I have the answer (to my personal situation, not too anyone else who posted on the thread).

When dd was born, her dad and I were in the middle of a bitter split. I suffered horribly from PND and the way dd and I lived bordered on neglect. I went on ADs, moved on and am now happy with a new partner and a new life. Dd is now a bright little 3 year old who's intellect astounds me on a daily basis.

However

I feel like the lack on affection towards dd that I experienced during my PND has not only been carried on on a lower lever but has also resulted in dd being somewhat socially and emotionally stunted.

I didn't really realise I did it until tonight.

She's not a cuddly child, she's not comfortable with physical contact, she doesn't know how to express her feelings. She is great with children on a one to one basis but once in a group she struggles massively in the fight for attention and ends up just wandering around on her own.

She doesn't know how to play and that's because I've never taught her. I have no interest in play and struggle to enjoy her.

That's the biggest problem. I don't enjoy her. She's always been a chore to me and as a result we don't have a bond, we just exist together.

That feels so awful to say. It's so sad for her. This is more than just parental guilt, I've completely failed my daughter on the most basic level. Yes, I've taught her stuff and in many ways she's ahead of her peers but what pathetic excuse of a mother raises a child who as no idea how to be a child?

I feel horrified at myself. I'm so glad I've realised this now when she's 3 rather than 23, 33 or 43.

I need help to change though. How do you enjoy your child? How do you bond with them when you never got the chance to at the crucial first stage?

I'm not expecting miracles. I know this won't be an over night thing. I just want a bond with my daughter.

Thank you

You've just described my DDs who have AS and I certainly did bond with them.

Don't be too sure that this is about something you have or haven't done.

I think you need to ask your GP to refer her to a community paediatrician for assessment.

Do things with her that you enjoyed as a child?

Read this perhaps www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0345442865?pc_redir=1413081062&robot_redir=1
Sorry I have no real experience, these are just ideas that came to mind.

And it's not your fault.

I could have written this post anout my oldest son. :( And it's awful to admit, but everything's so different with my youngest. Being with my youngest is fun, easy, and feels like a joyous treat. Being with my (equally lovely and actually less annoying in many ways) Oldest feels like a drag.

Oh that's so awful. I wish I wasn't able to say that.

My oldest was harder as a toddler. Couldn't just play with stuff like my youngest could. I hated playing with toys with either of them, but youngest just did it himself.

It has got better with Oldest. It has. Time helps. But I try everyday to hide how much easier I find it to love his little brother simply, and without the angst.

You can develop abound now but it will take time. Start by finding things you like about the child and telling her daily
Read a Book called the highly sensitive child . It will explain everything

Some children don't know how to play or interact with groups of children.

It's not necessarily anything you did or didn't do.

DD1 didn't play with toys, didn't much like playing imaginitve games and wandered off if faced with too many other children.

DD2 is the absolute opposite. I didn't have PND, both had much the same start in life.

DD1 is dyslexic, and I don't think she picks up subtle social cues and I think that's why she didn't find other children easy.

Toys? I don't know, she'd much rather mess with pens, craft stuff and anything belonging to the adults rather than toys. She also loved climbing. She was exhausting.

At 2-3 you had to follow her everywhere, take your eyes off her for a second and she was climbing the book case.

Honestly OP three yearolds aren't always delightful, they are stunningly hard work.

Thanks everyone. Hearing other stories helps, especially those with a few years of hind site.

Because it's always just been me and her I feel like we should have this glorious Gilmore Girls-esque relationship where we've bonded over hard times and conquered them together.

I know that's ridiculous and we are not and never will be the Gilmore girls but I feel like our negative experience should be used to create a positive rather than carry on the negative

However, OP you must realise that just because you find your DD hard now, it doesn't mean you always will.

The flip side of DD1's quirks and disinterest in other children and toys, is a deep quiet self confidence. She has just grown up quietly and without much fuss (apart from chasing the SENCO for dyslexia help and even that DD1 just gets in with).

Meanwhile, DD2 is an utter madam about food, and had fits of being an utter pain at 6 and 10, only at 13 does she finally seem to be developing her sisters common sense. Generally I find her far harder work.

My DS has autism, my DD doesn't...I didn't have to teach DD to play, or how to manage in groups, she just did them.

I wouldn't assume it's something you've done wrong, yes, it's possible - but, when a child isn't picking up things that other children just do naturally my first assumption would be that it might be developmental rather than parental.

Oh goodness, yes elephants! In a lot of ways dd is an absolute dream which makes me all the more mad at myself for not appreciating her!

She was a nightmare during the terrible 2s and she had nightmares often when she has been in contact with her dad or when she's over tired although those are getting less frequent now we have ended contact.

She's 3 no she's no walk in the park however I am incredibly lucky to have such an easy going, mature child.

We CAN make this better. I'm just sorry and appalled that it's taken me this long to see how bad it is :(

tabula thankyou, I will of course take note of that and enquire at the nursery however I am not overly worried about autism as dd is very much like my brother was at that age. Pretty much a carbon copy in many many ways.

My mother wasn't partixularly affectionate and we don't have a typical mother daughter relationship. I love her and admire her greatly however I want so much more from my relationship with dd than I do with my mum

My DS is very like my uncle...it's what made me not notice it immediately, lol.

For what it's worth, my DS is clever - he's on track for hung to uni next year, the things he struggles with are the things that other children just picked up, not the things you purposely teach.

Also the fact that he was basically middle aged from being a toddler and it's only as he's become older that that's stopped working against him.

You're physically there for her, you seem concerned about her - I genuinely think there might be something other than just you causing an issue, as much as an online opinion counts anyway...keep it in mind as something that might be worth looking into.

I could of written your last sentence where you say about your relationship with your mother and wanting more from your relationship with dd then you have with your mum.
I have a dd of 3yrs and 5 months and our relationship sound similar. I love her dearly but she's such hard work. I don't enjoy doing things with her because she constantly moans. We've had to cut days out short because she's been so miserable. Every day is a struggle because I feel that I'm hindering her development because we don't do much (so feel guilty that I'm not enjoying her), but if I try to do things with her she creates. So whatever I do, I feel bad.
At Pre-school she's fine, not the most outgoing child but is happy there.

Sometimes I wonder if she picks up on me feeling negative or whether I try to hard because I want to have a good relationship with her. I don't know.

If she is just like your brother then to me the obvious (and much more likely) assumption would be that her personality is genetic rather than anything you've done or not done.

If you have no interest in play, maybe she has no interest in play because she is like you rather than because you've not played with her?

Don't be so hard on yourself...

That all said - you say you just don't enjoy her and don't feel bonded to her. That doesn't mean you've caused her behaviour, but it's a shame anyway, though more common than you might think. This is a total cliche but all I can suggest is the old "fake it till you make it"...

Thank you everyone.
Sounds awful but I've made a special effort to be more affectionate towards her the last couple of days and she seems to have responded well. I always just assumed she wasn't a particularly affectionate child, I never was but again I think the links to the 2 generations (or more) of mother daughter relationships are now increasingly apparent!

I talked to her key worker today and she said she seemed to much prefer adult company at nursery and will often shadow an adult rather than play with the children.
She does play when encouraged though and will work in a group when needed.

She does definitely much prefer one on one time with other children and always seems very awkward when in a group. She tries to join in but always seems to stick out, I can't quite put my finger on why. Maybe it's more forced with her like she's desperately trying to join in but it just feels wrong

Anyway, the nursery are keeping a special eye on her, I'm sure if they pick up on anything worrying they'll let me know.

Can you do stuff like sit her on your lap for stories etc?

Also I catch myself feeling similar with my ds but exploring those feelings it is because I don't have a close relationship with my mother so don't know how to create one with dd. Oddly I have no issue with this with ds.

So I've accepted that, you know what, dd does love me (I had odd feelings that how could she possibly love me) and I love her. I've been reveling in her, getting to know her, listen to her etc. She's 2 and she is cuddly and responds to affection.

We are going to have the best mother daughter relationship that we can and I'm going to try not to project an ideal them be upset because we didn't achieve it.

Back to your dd - she sounds normal to me! 3 is the cusp of playing with as opposed to alongside others as well as group working. My dd's preschool don't even talk about group activities - it isn't important but peer interaction is.

My dd sounds very similar to yours, but I'm lucky to have a good bond with her (I think we kind of understand each other as we're very similar in personality). If you find playing hard (so do I!) maybe plan interesting trips out where you can talk. My dd loves going anywhere on a bus or train, loves going for a drink and snack in a cafe, we've had good times in museums, and even the library sitting and reading lots of books. When dp's out and it's just the two of us (well, 3 now as I have a baby ds too) we have a tradition of fish and chips eaten snuggled up on the sofa in front of a film. We bond over making stuff too sometimes - junk modelling's always good. Hope some of those ideas help. Although my dd has her quirks I just try to enjoy her as she is, and build her confidence, the rest is up to her. It sounds like you had a really difficult start - you have plenty of time to grow your relationship.

I tripped myself a couple months ago realising I was getting so wound up and frazzled by my DD (now 2) that she was feeding off my emotions and winding me up more.

Since then i've made a conscious effort to stop yelling, take more time and notice the little things (and write them down / post them on fb occasionally).

Perhaps you need to find something you enjoy doing that you can do together. I took mine to a museum today; I didn't get to look at it in the adult sense but I really enjoyed walking round with her; pointing out things she might be interested in... maybe thats the sort of thing you could do with yours and enjoy? Playing doesn't have to be tea parties and play-doh (I not very good at either for very long).

Also; my DD is actually quite confident however is totally capable of being a limpet. Currently has a real aversion to any group activities that involve singing...don't ask me why.... she will happily bounce around to Metallica at home but the library for rhyme time? That invokes a meltdown!

Have you read the MN thread where the OP was talking about how she wished her bond was stronger with her daughter? Hope it's okay to reference it. She said that she wasn't sure if she loved her, but worked on it by spending lots of attention with her over a year or so and the last post was a really happy one.

Are there maybe painful experiences from your childhood (being left out for e.g.) that are surfacing now as your DD experiences them, and that's why it's more comfortable to have distance between you?

I think you both sound great. And it's possible that it's been weighing on your mind longer than you think so it seems almost insurmountable now, but it's obvious you love her from the way you're asking about this. You don't have to feel it every day to know it's there, love presents differently, we're sold such myths about mother/child relationships.
Please don't blame yourself. Your DD is an individual, just because this is a possible cause doesn't change the fact it's so unlikely you caused some of her more difficult traits.

And remember Lorelei and Rory had that massive fight and stopped speaking to each other and Lorelei didn't even tell Rory she'd got engaged...

And (sorry, on a roll) think of Emily Gilmore and her relationship with her daughter, didn't stop her knowing how to be affectionate and being happy to have a kid, and then her close relationship with Rory didn't stop Rory from having trouble saying I love you to Dean & being more comfortable wih just one or two friends as a teenager.....

velour LOVE all the Gilmore references, I hadn't even considered that side of them!

Thankyou again everyone,
We've had a lovely week this week, I've made a concerted effort to be more affectionate and interested. She's been really well behaved too which has helped!
I'll keep persevering, I'm sure we'll get there :)

That thread mentioned by velour above is one of my very most favourite threads on mumsnet. Proper heartbreakingly wonderful stuff. I wish I knew where to find it as I think you'd find it hugely encouraging.

You know....children often don't 'join in' or play together until well past three. At three a lot tend to play alongside other children, rather than with.

The child development officer at our school's nursery told me all about it. She says parents often push their kids to make friends and maintain friendships, but actually, they can be closer to 5/6 before they actually do.

I wouldn't worry overly that you have blighted your dd's social skills. She is only three...there is plenty of time for all that yet.

You haven't failed your daughter. Not at all. You couldn't help it that things were bleak at the beginning. And sometimes survival takes all our emotional and physical strength. There's nothing let over.

But you have done everything you could to be a good mum.

We do our best according to what we know, and when we know better, we do better.

Sorry - that was in reference to your other thread, where you are concerned about your dd not joining in.

My dd is 5 going on 6 now, and she has always been self contained...I used to worry about her socially too. She would stand on the edge of things looking in, and often seemed to give up and wander off alone. So I know how you feel. It made me so sad and worried. She is also very shy so of course that didn't help either.

That was when the lovely CDO reassured me.

Dd is in primary one now, and her social skills go from strength to strength. It was a natural progression at her own pace.

You sound like a great mum. xx

And yes, Pictish is right that children will develop at their own pace. It's not something to worry about too much just yet.

Thanks everyone :) those stories are reassuring.

I'm sure she'll grow into it, I'll keep an eye on her as are the nursery. I can't help comparing her to her mega outgoing step brother whos 9 months older which doesn't help although I'm told that his cousin was exactly the same as dd at her age and now at 5 he is really coming out of his shell at school. Only time will tell i suppose!