How do you keep your temper with a non sleeping older child?!

[Fern123]

My DS has always always been a horrible sleeper but he's nearly 6 now and it's driving me potty.
We still have to sit with him in his room until he falls asleep. He wakes EVERY night for some reason or another and then depending on our luck, he will either go straight back to sleep or is awake for hours - the problem I'm having is if it is for hours it ends up in a hissed shouting match, and tears, and then when the poor boy is sleeping I feel like a shite parent.
Tonight it's quite stormy here and that woke him, which is fair enough, so he came into our bed, which was fine for about 1 hour. He still was fidgeting and awake so I suggested he and I went into his bed, so we did for about 45 mins, after that he still wasn't asleep and it was 4.30am. I was exhausted so said gently ok that's enough I'm going back to my own bed, he agreed, kisses etching. Got back to my own bed, struggled to get back over but did after about 20mins, at which pint he bursts into the room and announces he's getting back I our bed!
I sent him back to his own bed, where he began to fake cry, woke his baby sister and at this point I shouted and scolded him.
More tears, real this time unfortunately and then eventual sleep at 6am, now I feel like crap and alarm is going to go off in 20mins.
I wish I could deal with this differently but if find it so difficult in the middle of the night.
Anyone else in the same miserable boat?

Not with a 6 year old, but my 3.5 year old is like this atm after a few months of finally sleeping through 5 or so nights a week - his big brother and I went away for a couple of nights in August leaving DH with DD and DS2, and DS2 hasn't slept through since (though he has not seemed upset about us going away otherwise, and knew we were going and coming back etc.)

With a 6 yo would a marble jar type reward system work? It works well with my 7 year old for other things (jam jar 3/4 full of marbles, another in for whatever you want to reward or out for what you want to stop - jar has to be full to earn pre-,negotiated reward).

Yep, but mine does early waking, anything between 4 and 5 and wakes the whole family. It seems to come in phases and usually this time of year.
The problem is that everyone is completely knackered, so everyone is snappy and grumpy. We've tried all kinds of clocks, head torches, story tapes and nothing has worked.
I'm of no help but feel your pain!

With my DS at that age I bought him a clock and told him if he came out of his room (other than an emergency or need for the bathroom) before the first number said 7, he would lose all screen time that day.

You can't make them sleep, but SN excepted there is no reason why a 5+ child can't understand they must stay in their room and rest or look at books & toys quietly.

Best of luck OP! It's awful to be tired for long periods of time.

Thanks for the replies, misery always likes company!
We've tried reward charts but might give the marble jar a try - anything at all is worth a shot.
Do you find yourselves getting angry though? I get so cross with him because he seems to try his best to keep himself awake!
I don't smack or say anything horrible but just bribes/warnings and of course GO TO SLEEP AND STOP FIDGETING a million times.

I've done "Get in that bed and stay there and I mean it" through gritted teeth. :)

Fern yes - my 3.5 year old likes to stroke my arms and face all night - he gets in our bed around 1am, either without me noticing or pleading a bad dream (which he then has to narrate in detail) but then he has to sleep as close as possible to me, without a millimetre between us, and stroke my face and arms - sounds nice but it is so irritating when trying to fall asleep, and he seems able to do it in his sleep so it never seems to stop! I grown "no stroking!" Which sounds mean but otherwise I can't fall or stay asleep - and he always starts up again and wakes me. He also starts singing in our bed, or tries to actually sleep literally on my head... He wants to be as close as possible, so yes it seems churlish to begrudge him, but long term sleep deprivation is awful and makes me grumpy and inclined to comfort eat so affects my life in knock on ways - and the lives of the rest of the household (though its only me he wakes).

Op you sound like your giving him too much attention when he wakes. Even negative attention is attention in his eyes.
I would start with a good bedtime routine and a reward system in place like pp suggested the marbles. When he wakes don't even talk to him just lead him straight back to bed. You need to be consistent and believe me it will be very hard to stay strong. Do not let him in your bed not even of hrs poorly as this will set you back a few weeks.
If you stick to this he should be sleeping through in a week.

Rapid return, if he gets out of bed put him back "sleep time, night night," second time "sleep time," then all times after that put him back with no comment or eye contact. he will soon learn that his behavior gets him no attention.
Persiveer and he will learn that getting up in the night is not tolerated. And make your bed off limits, and no more staying with him until he settles, you're doing him no favours by doing that.

I remember that sometimes I can't sleep even when I'm really tired. I always lie in bed and read with them for 15 minutes, then they can read on their own for a little bit. The rule i have that after a certain time it is grown up time downstairs so they have to stay in their bedroom. If they come downstairs they get marched back upstairs whilst I say quietly " it's grown up time downstairs' or 'it's time for mummy to have her cup of tea'. Any questions simply get answered with 'ask, me in the morning'.
We do go through phases with 1 child where she tries to come downstairs but the above approach seems to work. Occasionally I go upstairs and she's fallen asleep with the light on but that's fine.

Is he physically tired out? I've started taking dd out for a walk to ghe playpark after dinner at about six pm to tire her out!

Rapid return all the way. I never had to do anything like that with the older two but had to do it recently with ds2 who is 4.
He needed someone with him to settle and woke constantly during the night. I was on my own and on my knees.
It did take a few days and was at times soul destroying putting him back in his bed every single time. He was not best pleased for a night or two but in less than a week he was going to bed and staying in it.

He still gets up once in the night every few weeks or so asking for a cuddle and kiss but goes straight back into bed.
Even at 4 he was able to understand that it was ok to not be able to sleep but he could stay in his room quietly looking at books or quietly playing.
When I go and check on him later I sometimes find books and cars in bed with him so he hasn't settled immediately but he settles much faster and much earlier now he actually stays in bed.

Should also add he does sometimes also fall asleep with the light on. He has an ikea night light on the wall beside his bed for this.

If he can't sleep there is absolutely no point in telling him to 'go to sleep and stop fidgeting' because he won't be able to, he's not doing it on purpose.

Better to tell him to do what is in his control. Stay in bed with the lights off and rest. He does not have to be asleep but he is not allowed to wake others.

Does he have a toy to cuddle in bed? Sometimes it helps to try different bedding, some might become too hot, itchy or uncomfortable. A spare pillow next to the bed can help sometimes.

Don't be in the room with him. It's not necessary. It actually just disturbs him more. You tell him to stop fidgeting, that's going to drag him back to wakefulness or at least give him a reason to fight sleep.

Just put him in bed, read story and say you're going downstairs for x, y and z and that you'll check on him again in 5 minutes. Go back after 5 minutes. Speak as little as possible, i.e. only to say I'll check on you again in 5/10 minutes. repeat as necessary, lengthening the time. My ds is usually asleep after the 1st visit. But I don't have the patience for this. I have never stayed in his room. My sil did/does, and she still has nocturnal misery.

You can be too nice you know. And then you get cross and it turns out not so nice after all. Say goodnight and go. If he gets out of bed, consequences. Be strict and stay with it.

Make sure he's tired out, make sure bedtime is at a reasonable time, say 8 and stop pussy footing around him!

IMO the root of the problem lies in your statement that at bedtime "We still have to sit with him in his room until he falls asleep"

I think you need to tackle this first as it sounds like the main problem is him not being able to self settle. So when he wakes in the night, which everyone does adults and children alike, he needs you there with him again to recreate what he has at bedtime. If what he has at bedtime is just him getting himself off to sleep, then eventually this will be all he needs throughout the night too.

In theory this should be easier for you to deal with emotionally as it isn't the middle of the night for you. I agree with the use of rapid return to help solve this, and maybe even some gradual retreat to introduce the concept in a more gentle way.

Good luck though, I know from personal experience how miserable and down right exhausting sleep issues can be xx

Thanks to everyone who replied with some great advice.
I had a hectic day yesterday and didn't get a chance to read the rest of this thread until 5am this morning when DS had already been up for an hour and was in our bed again!!
So different story tonight, bath, pjs, drink, teeth, story, lights out, tucked in, cuddles and then I left!
I chatted to him about this at dinner time so he knew what was coming and did protest a little but not much and I held firm - without shouting!
So he's been in there since about 8ish and I've checked in him about 3 times but it's all been calm, it's been a while since my last check but think I'll leave it until 9pm and fingers crossed he'll be sleeping.
So now it's about consistency now I suppose, but I really hope things improve and I can stop the hissing through gritted teeth at silly o'clock!

Fantastic! If he wakes in the night you need to be both firm and boring. My tactic is to walk dd back to bed with the words "still night time, back to bed". Whatever she says, I respond with that. I don't get cross and I'm not overly nice: just neutral. We used to have a sleep problem with dd but this approach has reduced the problem to once or twice every six months.

Oh that's good news. Well done. Be string. He might well kick up more of a fuss tomorrow to test you. But he'll soon get used to the new set up. Well done. Fingers crossed.

Bit of an update, just wanted to come back and say that we are making good progress here.
We are still holding firm and DS has responded really well to the new bedtime arrangement, he's been staying in bed (maybe popping out for one last wee!) when we leave, and has been sleeping a lot better this week compared to last...I am so happy!
Our evenings are not completely eaten up with one of us sitting in a darkened room and DS has been falling asleep by himself earlier each night, so the first night it was 9pm, second night 8.45, third night 8.30 and last night he was sleeping by 8.15!
Thanks to everyone again who gave me the kick up the bum to make this change, and I am happy to report that the amount of hissing through gritted teeth is greatly reduced on my part!

Great news. So pleased for you that a corner has been turned. It sometimes goes through a worse before it gets better phase when they check to see if you mean it but it sounds like it may not.
Enjoy having your evenings back. I found it made me much better humoured in the day as well because I was getting some down time too.

Any advice for a nearly 3 year old who just refuses to sleep in the middle of the night? He cries/shouts, one of us goes in to check him, he doesn't want us to leave. If we say it's night time, back to sleep until the sun comes up (gro clock), he argues "I don't want to" or similar. If we walk out and shut the door he runs to it and pulls it open and starts shouting (safety gate at door because there are steps on the landing outside his room) and wakes the baby up. If we stay in his room and keep trying to persuade him to sleep it drags on for ages and I get crosser and crosser and end up telling him to shut up (to which he answers "we don't say shut up"). Sick of the battles and the sleep disruption on top of waking up to do night feeds with his brother! And god forbid I'm busy with his brother when he wakes up when DH is away. Massive tantrums!