5 kids in 6 years and not coping at all!(long)

[5toocoolforschool]

Okay so i am posting here because i am desperate.

I have tried so many different ways of doing things and things get better at first (or sometimes not at all)and im just sick of it and feel like giving up.

I have 5 children,aged 6,5,4,nearly 2 and 8 months.Before anyone says,yes we chose to have these children and we do love them and they are cared for but im just not doing things the way i would like to and life seems such a struggle most of the time.

Firstly,my husband has always said he doesnt want them to go to school,i actually agreed with him about this but as they got older and nearer school age i decided to send them as i wanted to try it,we did for 1 year and a bit and they were ok but not what i would class as "happy",plus my 2 oldest who are boys became very aggressive (here not so much at school) and were just acting very boisterous and rude,which at the time i blamed school for, so i took them out and at first things were great,but slowly its been getting worse.

I cant find the time to do ANYTHING with them.I was planning for it to be mostly child led,following their interests,with a bit of formal learning for the 3 R's.but there is literally not any spare time.My eldest has become so lazy,its impossible to get him to do anything,get dressed,pick up things when hes finished,he wont even go upstairs sometimes because he cant be bothered to walk up there!

I cant drive,we have a few nice things in walking distance (beach,woods,library,park,farm)and they still see their friends,plus a few new home ed ones,but anytime we have to go anywhere he doesnt want to go he ruins it by screaming like a banshee and lying on the floor.Its so frustrating and its got to the point now where i havnt taken them since last thursday because i know it will happen again.

He is VERY quick tempered,will lash out over the smallest thing,this morning he and his 4yo sister were drawing a treasure map and she wanted to draw something he didnt want on there,he all of a sudden screamed and started punching her.I sent him to his room.He came down after 10 minutes or so,said sorry and since then has been ok,but when i went to his room,he has ripped down the curtain pole in his room,not just the pole but the wooden bit thats attached to the wall.I took all of his toys out of his room,and told him to stay in there,he is still in there now,i am so angry,Our house is in a state,we try to keep it nice but he (and to be fair all of them) destroy it.

The toddler climbs everywhere and is constantly pulling the older ones hair (or trying to scratch the baby) the baby is feeding a lot still.

5yo does things that toddlers would do,yesterday he got all the handwash and mixed it with all the toothpaste and spread it over the bathroom floor.3yo got my mascara and spread it all over the wall going up the stairs.

Its just a fucking nightmare and i dont know what to do,for the first few years it was so lovely,we just kind of coasted along doing what worked at the time.There is no discipline,i literally dont know what to do!I have tried things like naughty step,rewards etc for a bit.They dont seem to care!

I have contacted council about them going back to school (older 3)they are looking for places so thats a start,but tbhi dont think its anything to do with that,its lack of discipline,and im ashamed but i think its attention too,but i dont know what i can do?

Please someone give me some advice!

You need to do 2 things.

1 get a routine going at 8 am everyone gets dressed at 12 everyone has lunch. Be rigid for the first few days to get everyone used to it.

1. You need to introduce a behaviour plan and follow it through. Ie naughty step/removal of privileges etc and sanction bad behaviour. Target 1 thing you want to change first of all and stick to that slowly add other bad habits.

I think if you look at how large families were run in the past, iron discipline was at the core of it. No way to run such a large group of people without it I don't think.

It sounds as if they are all crying out for attention, which isn't to suggest you aren't giving them any but with that many to deal with plus the house and a feeding baby, how could it be anything other than chaos?

Where is your DH in all this? I don't think you can physically manage to keep this many kids under control when some of them are acting in ways that need immediate sanctions. It's like spinning plates but if one needs correcting another will drop to the ground.

Your DH needs to be at home as well for some of the time assisting in operations, and you could clearly use another pair of hands as well. Could you get a mother's help or student who wouldn't be in sole charge of the children but just someone else to fetch, carry, do and distract as required?

Where is your family? Do you have any relatives who could come and help?

Hard to say whether your eldest has genuine problems, can your DH take him and the 5 year old out to burn off some energy? And also to see how they react when you're not around.

DH does loads at the weekends,does housework,i usually get a lie in on a saturday(luckily they are all great sleepers else i really would not cope)he takes 2 of them swimming or bowling at the weekend.During the week he gets home from work and we share putting them to bed and all of that.

Last week i took the older two boys to london for the day and it was lovely,until 6yo had a complete meltdown in the dinosaur section at the natural history museum,because i said i couldnt buy something (gave him an alternative that didnt cost as much,the thing he had chosen was just too expensive)and he went mad and ruined the rest of the day by moaning and saying he was tired.

I would love some help but cant find any!no family within 4 hours drive.

Are there people like supernanny in real life,that come into your house and tell you what to do?thats what i feel like i need!

i am learning to drive so hopefully that will help a bit.

I agree-large family is chaos unless there is solid routine and discipline.
Driving will really help, I suspect school will too but home edders might have other ideas.
you must have some routine if they sleep-can you build on that.
I dont think child led is working very well for you, so can you lead and then build some child led stuff in.
the vast majority of people would feel overwhelmed-chin up.

That is exactly how i feel,overwhelmed.Its just too much.But then sometimes it is so lovely and im really glad i had them all close,i guess i just need to get thorugh these next couple of years the best i can.

They dont have a set bedtime but usually go to bed between 7.30 and 9.30,because its lighter for longer at the moment sometimes they are up later.

How realistic is it to home-school your older children when you have a baby and a toddler? Sending the oldest three to school will save your sanity and be better for them.

Would a live in au pair be an option for you?

I don't think home ed is for everyone (child wise). Hopefully the reintroduction of school will help.

I'm normally very child led, but agree it sounds like your children need more structure.

Is there a Montessori school near you? It's very child led from what I have heard.

(I struggle with two kids, so think you are amazing!)

How do you know that school made the eldest aggressive etc? At around 4-5, boys have a testosterone surge plus school is very tiring and by the end of an academic year, they're so tired = grouchy as hell.

Plus at 4-5 ish their emotional maturity changes and methods which worked for toddlers do not work so you'll need to have a think about new methods.

I would try school. It would help with routine and your sanity. What are the options for.school?

I think you need some structured support.

Maybe contact home start?

I dont really want anything like home start,i dont feel its got to that point yet,plus i can afford to pay for help i just cant seem to find what im looking for.Have had 2 au pairs,one was amazing but only here over the holidays before she started uni in france,the other left after 3 weeks as she said where we lived was too quiet.Havnt tried again since then plus we dont really have the space anymore,and i like walking around in my pants!

When i said school made him aggressive i meant the things you mentioned like it tired him out so much he was moody and irritable,i know about the surge,plus i think because he had never gone to nursery it was his first time in a big group of boys (his year was very boisterous) and maybe it was just me not being used to it.

Am 100 per cent sending them back to school.

I will see if i still need extra help once theyve settled there.

What about discipline though?Is it really as simple as just persevering with the naughty step?

After todays incident i told him he wouldnt be going on the computer (i let him go on it while im cooking dinner) we had tears but i stuck to it,usually i would give in for an easy life but i didnt this time,hopefully if i stick to my guns it will get better in time.

If you ask your hv for a parenting class she will know of the ones in the area. They are very supportive and non judgemental and people of all backgrounds use them. You could use a nanny/childminder for the session and have the chance to reflect away from the situation.

I dont particularly like the naughty step myself (I have home ed leanings but decided against it) I do like the book "how to talk so your kids are listen and listen so your kids will talk" or whatever it is!

If money's not a problem hire a super nanny type to help out for a few weeks and get you all into a routine.

Would the toddler benefit from some time in nursery?

Maybe try to dedicate some one on one time with each DC every week.

I have no advice! I just wanted to say that five in six years is a LOT of work, both in terms of looking after them and what your body has been doing. So, don't feel ashamed! Most cultures/societies where people commonly have that many children live in extended family networks and don't try to home ed. You've been doing a mammoth job!!

I'm honestly amazed and v impressed you've got this far and kept your sanity! I only have 2 dc and that's hard work.

Great choice in sending the older ones to school. I'm sure the structure will be good for them, but you need to accept their behaviour at home is likely to deteriorate for a while during settling in. DS went crazy difficult when he started preschool - angelic there but ghastly at home. All settled after the first term. The teacher said it was v common reaction to having to be so well behaved at school, they let it all go at home where they feel most secure.

If money isn't an issue consider hiring a daytime nanny to help out for a year or 2 while the little ones are tiny. Or as OP suggested, contact a nanny agency and explain you need super nanny type help for a few weeks.

In terms of discipline, it doesn't matter too much what you choose I don't think, so long as you are consistent, never make empty threats and ALWAYS follow through. It's worth looking at the different options. The how to talk book is good and an easy read. The Triple P parenting classes are usually available through your HV or there online here for example. You could also watch some of the jo frost back catalogue to get ideas.

Personally I'm not keen on the naughty step as DS just gets upset and angry, but I do use it occasionally when he's past himself. Mainly I try to do consequences - hitting when out and about = home immediately and end of treat, forgetting to say please = ignore then if necessary reminder and asked to try again in a nice way, making a mess with paint (intentionally) = has to help clear it all up.

Hitting at home would get a stern - DS we do not hit in this family, mummy is very sad, we must be kind, you will sit quietly next to me and think about what you need to do to make this better. If he sits quietly and apologises (properly) that's the end of it, if he tantrums, time out or increasingly now, loss of privilege (tv, trip out, iPad, favourite toy but not his lovey).

I'm a stickler for manners and kindness to others. DS is good with these in general but has total tantrums from time to time, usually when hungry or tired. I sit next to him and say quietly that I'll talk to him when he's finished, and then sit and wait. I praise the good behaviour too, but not that that should be normal - manners aren't praised each time, they're expected, sharing a toy with his sister unprompted would get a that's such a kind thing to do. I try to praise and criticise the behaviour rather than him personally.

As I say, no technique is perfect. Some of this you couldn't do with 5 kids to look after. Look at the options and then choose and stick to something.

Good luck. 5 kids and hanging on in there - you're amazing!

A lot of this could be due to: tiredness, and maybe low blood sugar.

Going to London: this involved lots of new things. Getting up early? Travelling by train. New smells, crowds, noises, people brushing close, lots and lots of new sights; this is total sensory overload!
If I you do something like this, it is a good idea to make space to desensitise. Ideally fit in a trip to a park or something, but even in the Natural History Museum - go to a quieter space (the Blue Whale if not too crowded or Insects, or even just run/rest outside).

Time out is necessary to recharge batteries. When I think about first days at a new job, I always remember just how tired I felt from little things like learning where the toilets were, never mind all the names.

Children can sometimes react to tiredness by becoming hyper. My DS used to, but once he stopped he would then collapse and sleep.

I know one person who has 5 children and has HEd most of them. BUT she had 3 year gaps between each of her children. And to be honest some have at various times gone to school (one at 13, another at 10) for a while. I don't think she has ever been educating more than 3 at one time really. She also lives close to town, drives and has help when she needs it.

Good morning 5toocool I have 5 DC with less than 6 years between them, too. Mine are now older and life is far calmer! When ours were younger we certainly had a routine with them and stuck to it, no matter what! I think we were quite strict and we would not put up with any "nonsense" as it just disrupted life for so many other people!

I always found that it was easier to get the children all out at least once a day. This did not need to be expensive, just to walk to the park, or to the river and feed the ducks, walk around the castle etc..... This helped with their energy levels and kept me sane! But mine were always eager to go out. Could you perhaps be really positive with your eldest and get him to "help" you, or perhaps get him to choose where the family goes until he gets used to the idea of trips out as a regular thing. A day in the house with 5 DCs would have sent me round the bend!

One of the huge positives that I found having them all so close together was that they were all still enjoying the same sort of things at the same time, like the trips I have mentioned, without having an older one doing it under sufferance and grumping because it was too babyish for them.

Having a set bedtime was also a must for me. (DH worked away from home during the week, so that was down to me mostly) I did a staggered bedtime starting with the youngest and routine of family story all together, - older ones "helping" to read to the younger ones, then an individual story and cuddle once in their beds. All in bed by 7.30. I didn't mind if they then chatted together quietly, as long as they stayed in bed. I needed my evening sanity time!!!!

I would say that I think it would be best for you to pull things around for you now as when the older ones hit puberty then a whole other lot of issues appear overnight and if things are calmer now I am sure the teenage years will be better for you, rather than going from one sort of chaos to another.

My house was a permanent state!!! There was so little time for housework, but it is not for ever! I tried to be as minimalist as it is possible to be with that many people in the house, just to keep mess to a minimum. It is so lovely now to be able to have a clean and tidy house without all the stress. Just don't worry about the house......there will be time for that. At about the age your oldest one is now I started adding in a 10minute quick tidy before bedtime routine started. Lots of encouragement and praise!!! A quick hoover round......enough for me, anyway.

It IS hard work, but also fun - enjoy it. Once you have some in school, then you will have a bit of a breather during the day, which will help, too.

Routine, rules and consequences. I know a lovely family with 8 children, and they are well behaved and happy. Everything is run to routine though, the rules are clear and everyone knows what will happen if they don't follow them. Everyone also gets a little 1:1 time with Mum/Dad each day, be it helping with chores, doing homework or snuggling in front of the TV.

Google 'supernanny big family' and look at the episodes on You Tube - it will give you a starting point. Basically though, sit everyone down and agree on some house rules, rewards and consequences. Sticker charts for something nice at the end are good, time out or loss of privileges for consequences.

I have 11 children and echo what everyone is saying here - routine, routine, routine. Young children thrive on it. Give lots of positive rewards for good behaviour, always follow through if you've promised a consequence for unwanted behaviour and keep the whole lot under your watch until the older ones can be trusted alone. At that age I would take them all with me if I was cleaning upstairs for example. That way you can nip behaviour in the bud immediately. By the time the oldest is about 10 your life will be totally different and much easier, but the groundwork you're doing now is vital.

Send your children to school for the love of puppies, and please do it before it is too late for them to get some academic value out of it.

And make sure you persist with the driving lessons.

The reason you had for taking your boys out of school was nothing to do with school.
Boys all get aggressive and fighty from age 4 to 6. There is a testosterone surge during those years. What you saw in your boys had nothing whatsoever to do with unhappiness in school or unsuitablity of school for them. It was hormones.

School is an adjustment for many children, no matter how structured their home is. They are asked to focus and behave well in the group setting. There is a huge amount to remember, and there are annoying other children to deal with. This takes a huge amount of energy for most of them. They are kept going at a fair old clip in class too, and they can't just goof off when they feel like it. Nearly all children that I have experience of (5 DCs myself but more spaced apart than your family) bottle up their emotions, arrive home worn out, and family gets it both barrels at 3 o'clock. This is all normal. It doesn't mean school is bad.

You can anticipate that and work around it. I always had a snack and drink ready for them for the way home from school. I let the DCs play outside once their clothes were changed if they seemed to have energy left over, and for those who wanted to space out I had some nice VHS tapes of Beatrix Potter stories with an intro by Sinead Cusack and a few more very bland DVDs -- two of them loved Curious George.

Wrt discipline -- I didn't smack but I certainly read them all the riot act from time to time, and tbh and I don't know if that was better or worse. I also sent DCs to their room. What I did was always stuck to my guns when I said no, and to heck with the consequences (tantrums, etc). Also, if I said yes or promised something, then I made sure that thing happened. If I felt I had been unfair, too shouty, etc., I apologised.

Like Theyaremysunshine, I praised or faulted behaviour and never implied there was something innately good or bad in any individual child. I also praised effort, ability to work well with others, and whatever evidence of thought and good personal organisation I could see in things they did, from building with Lego to digging a giant hole in the garden to getting the table set peacefully, to having their shoes ready for heading out in the morning, etc. Effort and thought, etc. as opposed to end result. I tried to catch them being good and if they were playing nicely I would mention how well they were all cooperating.

Also wrt discipline -- I had them all 'helping' from an early age. They were able to help set the table and bring plates to the kitchen after dinner, and could also help put away their own laundry. We sometimes tidied up together, and they could be set to work for stretches of about ten minutes cleaning baseboards with baby wipes, or cleaning the fridge door, etc. It was like herding cats a lot of the time but they were pleased to be useful. (I lowered my standards significantly). And all of that gave them the message that they answered to me.

I had only a few 'No' rules no hitting, punching, pinching, biting or any form of hurting siblings, and no name calling or being mean or teasing, taking other people's things without asking, or breaking other people's things. The other No I had was wrt their toys what could be brought outside and what had to stay indoors, and wrt my things me jewellery, perfume, and makeup. Nobody was allowed to touch my stuff and I kept it all out on my dressing table. I didn't have an early bedtime they all went together some time between 8-8.30-9. We had just one bathroom session with tooth-brushing, loo-using, and face washing that way. Then all into pajamas and all into bed. I read a bit and chatted with each one, and then said nightynight.

I have a friend with 8 DCs each about 18 months apart, who went through a few years when she did home ed. She is a qualified teacher however, and was able to put on a 'teacher hat' for the daily hours of home school. She also drove, so she didn't wear herself out wrangling them all on public transport, and they could venture further afield for things to see and do.

She and her DH did 123 Magic with the DCs. They also religiously spent meaningful one on one time with each child every single week no matter what was going on.