4 yr old behaving badly to new nanny

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Am looking for advice on how to handle this. Not sure whether to post in patenting or childcare, so will try here and then move it if its the wrong place!

My ds, has just turned 4, and has been a delight until now. I've always known I am lucky and I've never had any of the bad behaviour and rudeness that I see friends and acquaintances having to deal with as part of daily life. I've also known its not a reflection on my fabulous parenting , it's because ds is naturally 'good' and is motivated by wanting to please people.

So am in alien territory here! And finding it super hard to teach someone else how to manage behaviour that I've not had to deal with myself.

Ds has had alot of upheaval recently, we've moved house, his old nanny left (on good terms, she's got an opportunity of a lifetime), and everyone is talking to him about leaving nursery and going to 'big school'... So he's feeling very unstable and not in control of things at the moment.

And it's clear this is having an effect on his behaviour, but it's all coming out directed at the new nanny. And it's really upsetting me, and I'm scared the nanny will leave if this continues :( (not showing this to either of them of course).

He's hitting, kicking, pushing, shouting at her.
Also low level whining and rudeness and general pushing his luck.

The nanny had a really well managed start (I've been trying to do everything to make this transition work). She shadowed the old nanny for two days. Had half a day with me & no ds. Plus one evening with a lady who does regular babysitting, and set her up with a clear schedule and routine etc.

And ds seemed to be bonding with her well, seemed to adore her in fact, and the nanny seemed to be getting on well.

But since the bad behaviour has started (1.5 weeks ago), it's turned into a nightmare.

Hitting, kicking, pushing, shouting... I've been clear we have a zero tolerance to these. A loud 'no!' and if he isn't immediately sorry, taking the toy/ activity away, and taking self away for a couple of minutes, then coming back when he's ready to apologise.

And then the low level stuff saying no that's not nice/ kind/ whatever, and moving on swiftly. Basically doing the ignore, distract, model good behaviour otherwise it will be continually telling off and negative feedback.

I work from home and am mostly shut away in my room. But the nanny is coming in to interupt me to sort it out. I was fine with this initally, as ds really listens to me (I get none of this behaviour), so my thinking was - I tell him off and enforce from 'above' to show I'm backing up the nanny. Then he gets the message quickly and it's all resolved.

However, it's not worked out like that!

The nanny is increasingly running to me every time something happens, and ds (being a bright little monkey) is doing these things to get attention from me. It also feels like she's making little attempt to manage the situation, and I'm baffled as to how it escalates so quickly and so constantly. I need to work out what exactly to advise her, as whatever she's doing, it's not working!

I've reassured the nanny that it's not about her, but about the instability, and we need to create a united front and he needs boundaries to make him feel secure again etc.

I've asked her to prioritise the really bad stuff, and relax a bit about the other stuff, as I think she's almost waiting to pounce on every tiny thing and then almost reporting to me with a 'there, look how bad your child is' kind of attitude.

So, yesterday I've changed tack and explained to the nanny that this isnt working, and she really can't keep coming in as it actually eroding her authority, and ds is doing bad things more because he's getting attention from me.

I want to reinforce good behaviours, teach her to distract, minimise and ignore the little things, and come down hard on the big things.

How can I do this? And how can I reinforce things to stop this awful behaviour from ds, and get the nanny into a positive behaviour pattern where she feels happy and constructive?

I need to manage this well, as I think the nanny will leave unless ds behaviour becomes better. And I really don't want this to break down...

I think your idea for using positive parenting techniques is spot on. You and your nanny need to talk, make sure that you are both setting the same boundaries and using the same rewards and consequences. That way you are providing a united front. I also agree that the nanny needs to handle things herself - tbh I would expect an experienced nanny to be coping without running to you, what would she do if you weren't working from home?

As a first stop, you could both look at some of the videos on www.parentchannel.tv and see which ones seem to apply to your situation. There is one on attention-seeking which might be a good place to start. Also starting school, tantrums and aggression.

If you fancy reading something (and sharing it with your nanny), I found "Raising Happy Children" by Stimpson and Parker to be practical and reassuring without being too rigid.

Your op shows a lot of insight into possible causes of your ds's behaviour. Maybe you could have a conversation with your ds, on his own, about why he thinks he is behaving like this with the new nanny. Ask if he's missing his old nanny. It sounds to me like this might be at the bottom of things. You say she left on good terms, but as far as your ds was concerned, someone he was close to just upped and went.

You could also discuss his worries about 'big school'. I think he needs to know that his anxieties are being taken seriously, before he can 'move on' and establish a relationship with the new nanny.

Her frequent referral to you is indicative of her feeling out of her depth at the moment. Is your nanny young/inexperienced? Is this her first placement?

Don't give up on it, it may take a bit more groundwork on your part, before nanny and ds are ready to be left to their own devices.

Hope it works out for you all.

Thank you both, for really kind and thoughtful posts - always a bit scary posting on mumsnet!

Nanny is experienced and came highly recommended, but her last post was with a friend, so she already knew and loved the children. I think she's finding it hard to jump into a tricky situation without having that bond. (and I'm finding it hard feeling like my child is being judged and found wanting).

I was thinking of making a poster of some rules together with ds - or me starting it and leaving ds and nanny to finish it together? How to do it in a way thats best?

Anyway something like this:

In our house we are

• kind to people
• love to laugh and have fun
• like to share
• use gentle hands
• we stop and listen
• use our words
• say pleases and thank you

• no hitting, kicking or pushing
• no shouting at people
• no being rude
• no running off

I'm not sure your can have a rule telling people they must laugh and have fun . It is fine and normal to have sad and angry emotions, so long as we and our DCs handle negative emotions in an acceptable way.
So you could teach your DS to roar, punch a cushion, count to 5 etc. when he feels sad and angry. Reward him when he has clearly battled to express his anger/sadness in an acceptable way. Let him see when/if you feel sad/cross/frustrated and learn from how you handle it.

He is probably experiencing some really big, new, scary emotions which he doesn't have the tools and experience to cope with. You and your nanny can help him.

This is a really interesting article which talks about giving your child the words to describe his emotions and how to acknowledge how he is feeling.

Yeah, that one was more so ds would like the list!

Nanny AND babysitter? When do you manage to spend any time with him?

Well neither are full time!

I introduced her to the babysitter (as she'd done some days for me before she had her baby), as she'd done some of the duties i want the new nanny to do, that the old nanny hadn't (different days working) and I thought it would be nice to have someone show her through every single bit of her duties and as both are lovely and friendly, to let her ask questions in a nice relaxed situation. Over kill really, but I thought it would be nice for her!

Not sure whether to post in patenting or childcare, so will try here and then move it if its the wrong place!

Perhaps even post in Childminders, Nannies, Au-Pairs as it directly relates to having a nanny.

You should not need to teach your nanny how to manage behaviour, they should already have some ideas themselves, so do talk to nanny about what things they feel may work. Every child is an individual so what works for some, may not work for others.

Ds has had alot of upheaval recently, we've moved house, his old nanny left (on good terms, she's got an opportunity of a lifetime), and everyone is talking to him about leaving nursery and going to 'big school'.

This is a difficult time for him - the move to big school may be bothering him a lot more than he lets on and if starting in Aug/Sept then it is not far off now. New nanny is probably less of an issue as he is used to being cared for by a nanny, so he may just be testing to see what new nanny will let him get away with.

Directing it at the new nanny is perhaps because he feels they are an easy target. Physical aggression towards nanny needs to be stopped, by the nanny. You talking to him may help but it is nanny who has to do the bulk of the work. Set some ground rules, establish some consequences if really disobeying the rules.

Are there any particular songs he likes to sing? If he starts to kick off, then having a cuddle whilst singing a song can defuse things... tip: don't let him wear shoes at that time!

Is having clear schedule and routine something new? Is he used to doing some things on schedule, such as specific classes but having freedom to choose when to do other things, such as spontaneous trips to the playground?

taking self away for a couple of minutes, then coming back when he's ready to apologise.

Time out may work to help both parties concerned calm down but perhaps he is wanting more attention, more affection from the new nanny. Following time out what then happens... do they sit together to read stories, do a puzzle, play a game, sing songs?

Nanny needs to know who is in charge when... as does your son. Nanny coming in to your WORK to get you to leave work to sort things out is not good. It wouldn't happen if you worked at a different location.

Are they going out lots? Children need a lot of exercise, they need to run about, jump around. There will be lots of sitting around when at school... so spend now doing outdoor things and things that use up energy like swimming, trampolining, orienteering/geocaching.

So much good sense on this thread, thank you

nannynick
"You should not need to teach your nanny how to manage behaviour, they should already have some ideas themselves"

Reluctantly I think this is the core of it. I talked to her and I think she just doesn't have the experience or natural flair for dealing with children, and the cracks are showing because DS behaviour is testing her.

I don't think it's going to work out which is such a shame as I really thought she was going to.

I watched her (discretely) with ds and it's clear she's out of her depth and also she's reacting very personally to it all.

When I asked her about this, it was clear she believes ds is doing all this to hurt her personally and she is reacting to him as if he's a much older child/ adult who is deliberately bullying her.

Maybe it was a particularly bad moment for her, but there was no nannying/ being a grown up from her, it was just reacting and punishing him for hurting her feelings.

Can I share this story just to get it off my chest, there's no point in sharing as its? not like I can do anything, but I was left feeling like I'm a bad mum with a horrible child.

She'd given him a peppa pig to watch on her phone, but it froze, and Ds cried out at it 'nooo' then said 'its stopped' in a whiney tone. She just got up and walked away without looking at him, acknowledging him or the problem. She went into the kitchen leaving him to cry and he started to shout after her, increasingly loudly and upset, which she completely ignored.

At this point I went into the kitchen and asked what was happening, she said he was being rude to her so she was ignoring him until he calmed down. I asked her whether she thought it was working, and she said no, he's a very naughty boy.

I tried to calm her down and said yes, with really bad behaviour walking away is exactly right, but not without telling him what he's done wrong. And this was not a bad situation, it became one because it escalated, and intervention would have stopped this from becoming a bad situation.

I asked her had she could say something like 'oh that's a loud voice, let's use indoor voices and tell me what's happened'. She looked at me like I was crazy, but went to do it, and lo and behold, instant quiet and then she came straight out again.

She said she wouldn't have said that to him as he was shouting and needed punishing before she would sort out the situation.

I did say (I don't know why I bothered but I guess I was in full on teaching mode), but he wasn't being rude to you, the iPhone froze and after he tried to get it to work, he cried out in frustration, not at you personally, and instead of engaging with him, helping him control his frustration and help restart it or put it away and do something else, you got up without a word and ignored him. Can you see how that situation was created and didn't have to be like that?

She shrugged and said 'he has to respect me before I will engage with him'. I then asked her if she was interacting with him at all apart from telling him off, and she just looked blank.

I asked her about her last job and how she handled bad behaviour, and she said there was none, they liked and respected me. It said on her cv she worked with a family for 6 years so excuse me if I dont quite believe the no bad behaviour in six years! Then she let slip they were the children of a close friend... Which explains alot. She's never nannies for children she didn't already know and love.

It was quite shocking to watch her with ds and hear her talk about him. And horrible to hear my child behaving like this too :(

I'm gutted. I feel like I've put my child through misery for nothing.

Having just read the last story, it really does sound as though this nanny isn't the one for you. Her approach to discipline sounds at odds with yours and it doesn't sound as though she is adapting her style to your family. Personally, I hate labelling children as "very naughty" as it just isn't helpful.

As I said originally, you need to be working together and using very similar techniques. Can you see this happening? If not, I would be looking for a new nanny if I were you.

Frankly she sounds incompetent. Making such a big deal over the iphone incident is really weird! Of course your DS was upset the phone stopped working, it wouldn't make sense to him. She could have addressed his tone of voice if she wanted there and then, e.g. "OK I understand you are frustrated but ask me nicely and I will fix it for you", but even that seems a bit OTT.

I don't have a nanny, but use a CM, so am familiar with someone other than me needing to manage DD's behaviour. Like your DS, she is naturally compliant, and I thank my lucky stars for that.

The way your nanny is behaving makes no sense to me. If she can't identify what's "naughty" and what is a child expressing frustration, I would doubt her skills.

I also would take issue very strongly with her describing any child as "a very naughty boy", it's the behaviour that is (or may not be!) naughty, not him.

She shouldn't have to already know and love a child to be a good nanny. I'd move on to someone else.

Oh dear, she doesn't sound very experienced at all because I don't know any nanny worth her weight who would want to interrupt her employer to come and sort things out!

She should be very aware kids display this sort of behaviour at stressful times and have a whole host of strategies for dealing with it up her sleeve.

She sounds utterly useless and I don't say that lightly.

My ds, has just turned 4, and has been a delight until now. - in your OP.

it was clear she believes ds is doing all this to hurt her personally

Your nanny may not be far wrong! It sounds to me like your ds simply doesn't like her - and with good reason by the sound of it!

It sounds like she has already made up her mind to dislike your DS and isn't giving him a fair chance.

She said she wouldn't have said that to him as he was shouting and needed punishing before she would sort out the situation.

Needed punishing - I wonder if that is something that happened a lot in her own childhood. People bring their own past experiences with them, so maybe she feels that any unwanted behaviour needs punishment, where as that is not how you do things.

It does not sound as though it is a good match between how you raise your son and how she deals with him. You need to be more alike I feel, it works best when all the adults in the house are "singing from the same hymn sheet".

Yes you are all, of course, right.

I have to have The Talk and I don't want to (wails like the coward I am!). I really thought I'd found an amazing nanny, and it's all gone so wrong so quickly and surprisingly.

She obviously can't cope with anything less or more than a quiet and perfect child, and is all over the place flailing around and knowing she's lost it

• It's probably easier to blame the child than admit you don't know what to do
• And i can understand how someone feeling out of control decides to 'come down hard' on the child and keep punishing until the child acquiesces... Except of course that kind pf power dynamic doesn't work
• I cannot understand how she's taking everything so personally and reacting as if it's an adult deliberately being nasty to her - that's just weird! He's been alive for 49 months, not 49 years!

Poor ds :(

I really thought this thread was about me not knowing how to handle ds behaviour change...

You have not mentioned any other children... so she has care of one child. Most nannies will care for 3, 4 or more children, I have not had any nanny job just caring for one child... two yes but not one. So she is having quite an easy time nannying wise - wonder if she realises that.

Good luck in whatever decision you make. It is better to end things sooner rather than later if there is no hope that things will improve.

Well I've had the talk, and we've agreed to give it three more working days - which is two weeks real time.

It also gives me time to get my head around this situation and getting a new nanny if needs be. Probably will tbh, but at least I feel like I've tried as much as I can and can move on with a clear conscience if she can't get it together.

She was still talking about ds 'learning to respect her', which I think is the essence of where she is going wrong - can anyone help me put it into words? I just think demanding respect from a 4 year old is weird and pointless... But I can't quite frame why as I don't mean he shouldn't have respect!

Also i want to give her a few internet & book sources to read as well, that are very clearly around positive reinforcement and how punishing sets up bad cycles of behaviour...but my Internet is not up and running (just moved house) so I can't view videos - can anyone give me some 'on the money' links?

I've got a few from earlier in the thread:

I can't see these two films from a site someone recommended but seems good from the description?

kids behaving badly

Description: When your child reaches a certain age, it’s natural for them to start challenging you – but what are the types of behaviour that you need to watch out for, and how can you make sure you’re in control of the situation. Includes five helpful tips for managing your child’s behaviour.

And

positive discipline

Description: Do misbehaving children need punishment or positive discipline – and what’s the difference anyway? Learn how to encourage good behaviour by teaching your child the benefits of following your rules.

Also will look at:
www.parenting-coaching.com/html/child_support.html

Raising Happy Children" by Stimpson and Parker

No offence but whats the point?
If your ds loved the nanny but something was spoiling it there would be something to salvage or if she'd been brilliant for years but had a personal issue spoiling things temporarily you could let her work through them, but the girl is inexperienced, gets a lovely child's back up and isn't on the same page as you regarding boundary setting and mutual respect.
She will need training from scratch and rebuilding an already damaged relationship.

I think if that incident is representative of the whole problem then she is not the right nanny for you!
He will just be confused If he is punished for things when he isn't being naughty and isnt told why, this will make him feel negatively towards her and act up.

You can't expect respect from a child if you don't earn it. blindly assuming a role of authority is not going to make the child respect you, just obey you.

He's 4 he should be played with not handed an IPhone anyway! I understand why parents do it when they're busy but not when a nanny has 1 child to look after and all her job entails is looking after him, she should be doing activities with him!

Yes I know. I guess the point is that I thought she was really great, and I felt she 'clicked' with us in a way I hadn't found before.

And then this happens, and I realise she's less experienced than I thought (nannying best friends children is just not the same), so I feel like giving it these 3 more days plus clear direction about what we do/ don't do, to see if it's a knowledge & experience gap that's sent her in a flat spin/ clutching at straws from her own childhood.

So one more chance for her, with a careful few articles/ videos/books to teach her the basics.

And that gives me:

• two weeks breathing space to prepare next steps
• create a good Imstruction manual based on what I learn from the links/ articles etc, so I can give her (or the next nanny) really clear guidance. I hadn't got anything like that as I'd never had to before!
• get recruit ready to go: adverts, look at previous cvs
• and warn my work I may need to take some unpaid leave,
• and warn my parents they may have to get ready for a small visitor if I haven't got it sorted after that.

Sorry they are not all saintly reasons!

this seems a good practical article.

And 'Playful Parenting' by Lawerence Cohen - I had this on my long defunct kindle and loved it when ds was a toddler. It was the only parenting good I've really bought into. but can't remember if it covers 4yr old, or if it is too 'parenty'?

And that's my list.

Toddler Taming by Dr Christopher Green. Some thoughts about the book from Mumsnetters.

She does not have the time to read books, watch videos, whilst she may have a some time between now and next week, things are not going to change over overnight.

Whilst your DS is not a toddler, the techniques that are tried with toddlers may well be appropriate as a starting point.

Toddler Parenting & Discipline. Talks about child's personality, expecting a child to know things when they don't. Positive discipline. Logical Consequences.