Help! At the end of my tether with 7 year old dd

[incogKNEEto]

Dh and I (and other dc's) are really struggling with dd2's behaviour at the moment.We have 3dc, dd1 (14) dd2 (7) and DS (5).

There are no problems at school (have spoken to her teacher), she is kind, helpful and a joy to teach . A little too chatty but this is improving.

At home she is like a different child . She is rude, defiant and thoroughly unpleasant to be around at the moment. If we ask her to do anything she is rude and she refuses to take no for an answer, ever. If I say no to her she will argue, and even if I reiterate that the answer is still no and I am not going to negotiate or change my mind, she escalates to shouting and screaming and throwing things.

She constantly tells hers younger DB not to do things, or encourages him to do things to get him into trouble, then laughs when he is told off.

We cannot leave dd2 and DS alone in a room together as invariably there will be a disagreement which quickly escalates into a fight.

Dd2 has always been an acquisitive child, who doesn't seem to be able to share her toys, so for example if DD and DS are playing with Lego, she will take more of the bits/ all of the bits DS wants and scream at DS if he touches them as they are 'hers'. DS is usually quite amenable but this is starting to annoy him as he can never play or do anything without dd2 taking over.

There seem to be no consequences that she cares about, she can lose her pudding after tea, her bedtime story, screen time or go to bed earlier than her DB, nothing seems to motivate her to behave well.

We have tried time out, removal of treats and privileges, ignoring bad behaviour and praising good behaviour but we are running out of ideas.

She currently shares a bedroom with ds, but wakes up early and then proceeds to wake him and the rest of the household up by starting fights with ds and screaming at ds.

Has anyone got any ideas? We are getting to the point where everyone in the house is bad tempered constantly, and however hard I try to remember it's the beviour not the child I am really struggling to enjoy spending any time with dd2 as it's always a battle

It feels like you could offer dd2 the world and it wouldn't be enough. The only time she is happy and pleasant to be around is if she is doing something she has chosen to do and all the attention is solely on her, we do spend time one to one with her as much as possible, but it can't be all the time as we have other children ( who incidentally are nothing like this!).

I grew up with a shouty, emotionally (& physically) abusive mother and I don't want to be that strung out, shouty woman on the edge that I feel I am turning into

Oh it sounds like you are at the end of your tether.

I don't have any tips to give you as I'd have handled things very similarly I suspect.

But I'll bump in the hope someone more experienced can help you out.

Hold in there. I'm sure you're doing a better job than it seems to you at the moment.

Just a thought re reading your post.

Do you think a positive enticement of an afternoon with one of you somewhere like a cafe or play centre would work.

Either for doing things you have asked or, and this might work more, for unasked niceness or good behaviour.

We have just started with DS doing a "caught you being good jar". Each time we cath him being good/nice etc without being particularly demanded/bugged then he gets a cotton wool ball in a jar. Jar full = treat.

The trick we have found is it filling up enough first time for it to feel achievable.

Thanks patilla, yes I really am at the end of my tether, so much so I simply ran out of ideas of what to do next!

We have tried the positive reinforcement of a treat out with me or dh, but she is (usually) good until she has got the treat, and during the treat but immediately we are home the rudeness starts again.

I have just read on another thread about a penny jar, with a similar system of rewarding positive behaviour and 'fining' for negative behaviour. She does like money so I might give that a try.

The other thing I've read about (and tried a bit with success but it does take real effort) is to try to change the narrative that the child hears.

So you choose one thing to focus on, like being nice to her brother, and every time she does it you say something along the lines of "I noticed how well you shared that you, it makes me/your brother really happy when you do that". So you give the specific example and say how it impacts.

It does mean you sound a loon when you are out but the idea is that you are giving reinforcement and a narrative of expected behaviour.

That said, I suspect it works better with little ones who are learning how to behave rather than wilful disobedience.

I don't have any answers, because we're in a similar situation. My DD is the same age (nearly 8) and she's just so unpleasant most of the time. Nothing ever seems to be good enough, and we have no idea what to do about her behaviour either. She's surly, rude and just mean. And yet at school, or with others, she's delightful.
I wondered if it's pre-teen hormonal things going on as half the time she doesn't even seem to know what she wants or what's wrong.

Oh I meant to say we have a sticker chart for all the kids (also have 3) and she will occasionally behave enough for a sticker (once they get 10 they get a treat).

Have you tried hovering and managing the situations a bit? Like with the lego for example, if you know she's going to mainline it sit and get them to sort out which bits are "theirs" before they start playing, they each get to choose one bit at a time so she doesn't have a chance to grab all of the good bits. Might take hours but think of it as an investment, if you painstakingly show her every step of how to deal with something well, then hopefully she is more able to do that herself.

Sometimes it helps them to save face if you stop a battle (Just literally say stop or freeze) and start again and do it over. I find once DS is engaged in a struggle it's really impossible to engage with him but if I can give him a chance to start again he's perfectly reasonable. Odd but it can work. I have a friend who gets her children to start over with each other as well!

There's a book called "The explosive child" which might help?

patilla yes that is something we do, we always try and praise each small positive interaction between dd2 and DS, since he was a baby! It works when we can find something positive to praise but at the moment it's hard to see any good in her behaviour. This morning we had already had tantrums about, eating breakfast (which cereal, how much), doing her hair, being reminded to do her teeth, pushing DS out of her way, screaming instructions at DS, calling DS an idiot, getting in the car, taking toys to school (not allowed and I have to check her book bag every day or she will have something in there that she's not supposed to have...)

And that's all before school, it's exhausting.

Bertie yes, I do the hovering and supervising sharing toys, and that does work as long as I don't do anything else/leave the room because immediately that I do she'll take over the game, or take all the bits that DS has been playing with. She seems incapable of playing nicely with him at all.

Even if I set up two different activities for them she will always want to take over and do whatever DS is doing! If there's a pot of glue on the table in the middle she'll move it nearer to her so DS can't reach...if I put two pots of glue out she'll just move both of them nearerto her...

Oh, and I will have a look for that book, thank you.

Sorry just seen your post Lizzie, sorry that you're going through the same difficulties too. It's so hard, I do wonder if it could be hormonal but then surely it would be at school too?

I keep thinking it must be to do with our parenting skills (or lack of), bit if it is why do we not have the same issues with dd1 or DS?

It's horrible because she is very bright and it's so frustrating that I can't get her to see that behaving like this just ruins the day for all of us, everyone is grumpy and it's a vicious circle, the ruder she is the crosser and less tolerant we get ...and so it goes on.
Every single day is a battle. I shout every day, after resolving every night that it will be better the next day. Tbh I dread getting up in the morning and I dread picking her up from school

Have any of the evening crowd got any suggestions please?

It is so peaceful here now as all dc are in bed, but this evening we have had more rudeness, horribleness to ds/dd1, and letting herself into dd1's room to help herself to dd1's stuff...again

Our current plan is to swap the bedrooms around, which is difficult as we have three bedrooms and five of us. DD1 has said that she is happy to share with DS as he will respect her stuff and doesn't touch/take it without asking (and DS will happily decamp to our bedroom floor if she has a friend over for a sleepover) and she flatly refuses to share with DD2, but we are not sure it is a viable long-term solution as DD1 is 14 and DS is 5.

At the moment DS is asleep in a nest made up on our bedroom floor, this means we will all have a more peaceful start to the day as he will just quietly sleep until the rest of us get up. DD2 will probably still get up at 6.15am (when DH's alarm goes off) but hopefully she'll stay in their bedroom as she has no-one to fight with!

We really need to do something about this as DD1 and DS are really fed up with how DD2 sets the mood for everyone else every day and I think they're starting to dislike their sister too

I would think DD1 and DS sharing is the best option, DD1 can always get changed in the bathroom or your bedroom.

As well as the other recommendations have your ever read "how to listen so kids will talk and talk so kids will listen" and "siblings without rivalry".

They are very good at helping you see things through your dc lives and how to change dynamics. Do you think dd2 has a personality that found the arrival of ds particularly difficult?

Thanks random we think that is the best option for now too. I have heard of the 'how to listen' book, but not the siblings one, so will see if I can get them from the library, together with 'the explosive child' one recommended earlier.

I don't think so, DD2 was fine with DS until she was at school full-time, then I guess the jealousy started a bit because DS was home with me in the mornings before afternoon nursery. Weirdly she seems to be getting worse rather than better as she gets older though

I honestly think she struggles to share the attention/limelight with anyone. She talks continuously, over the top of everyone else, she seems incapable of waiting for a pause in conversation, and she is often so busy trying to say the next thing that she fails to hear answers to questions that she has asked!

She's so bright, it upsets me to think that the way she is behaving makes it hard for others to enjoy spending time with her as she is so full on, with a really piercing voice (even when she isn't complaining, which isn't often, sadly), and knowing that she is such a model student at school - it must be something we are doing wrong surely?

Hiya,
Have come to this thread slightly late as you've already had some great advice from others.

I was about to post a thread quite similar to yours....we have 3 kids, 7yo son, 5yo daughter, 2yo daughter. We seem to have HUGE problems at the moment with the attitude between the 2 older kids. I have no idea why, but when they're in the same room together, all hell breaks lose. It used to be our 5yo daughter that caused all the problems.... I was thinking middle child syndrome? But she's calmed down alot since starting school. However, there is SUCH massive rivalry between them, vying for my attention, both vying for the attention of our youngest - they try to make her say who her best friend is (ie either older brother or older sister), there is unpleasantness at mealtimes, unpleasantness when they get to watch 30mins of tv after tea - massive rows over which programme they'll watch together.

In the mornings, its usually our 2yo who wakes first, then 7yo son. All is fine until 5yo comes into the kitchen - they immediately start sniping at each other, pointing out what the other one has done wrong. Its completely exhausting. I have thought about a money jar - each starts with a jar with set amounts of money in. If one is nasty to the other, then they have to give some money to the other jar.

I just want the kids to love and respect one another, they used to be so close. I do wonder if having a 3rd child has somehow upset the dynamics between the older 2. LIke you, they are both completely delightful at school and out of the house, they would never dare be rude or unpleasant other than at home. Some days they even sit together to eat lunch at school and they say it with a real pride. It does make me wonder if they're both desperately trying to get our attention at home.

Anyway, no real or good advice, other than I feel your pain and I'm off to buy sibling rivalry on Amazon. Will report back if there are any amazing ways of coping in there!

Any chance that she may develop a love of reading to occupy her a bit and give you all some peace?

Another thought is that you sometimes use a timer. She gets say 10 minutes one to one time with one of the adults and then she has to go and occupy herself for 20 minutes without annoying either of her siblings and follow through with consequences?

It could be that the effort of being so well behaved at school all day means you are getting all of her contained thoughts/verbalising/chatting/social interaction needs. I have to say sometimes my 8 year old is awful after school - it's like she's on something she is so full on - leaves us utterly exhausted!

I am not an expert but I am reading an amazing book which if you have time to read should help you it is called Connected Parenting by Jennifer Kolari.
It deals with what she calls 'gladiator children' (the difficult, hard to please ones that some of us have). Lots of strategies which are easy to try.

Her big technique is mirroring. So if you DD is upset or kicking off about something you have to really be in the moment with her, rather than trying to fix it/cheerlead (which will cause her behaviour to escalate, which will then cause your response to escalate). You still set limits or consequences but maybe not right then, but once you have connected emotionally and she is calmer then you have a chance to say "I am your parent and I didn't like the way you spoke/took lego before etc so this is going to be the consequence...")

Also another technique is babytalk, just spending some time to reconnect with you kid, no matter what their age is, make a fuss of them, tell they are so cute, basically what you do to a baby speaking with lots of empathy in your voice etc apparently it helps them feel really loved/connected/cherished and can result in better behaviour all round.

Anyway I am probably not explaining it that well but the book will if you can get a copy.

actually if you look up the author Jennifer Kolari on You Tube you can watch a video of her speaking at a parenting conference, she covers most of her ideas there.

I have to say my youngest (said above 8 year old) does respond to being very "babied" it is that whole emotionally connecting thing, being allowed ot express her unhappiness in life and then getting over it much quicker.

Thanks random and oobedobe. She does enjoy reading random, so when we swap the bedrooms over on Saturday I am going to try and create a 'reading corner' for her, blankets, cushions and a bookcase.

I am also going to read up on lovebombing and check out all the books that have been recommended on here. I really appreciate all the advice, thank you

Things are slightly better. so far today as I am resolutely not raising my voice and supervising interaction between dd2 and DS constantly!

sugarhoops yes that's what I want too, them to get along and love and respect one another. It's so hard when you have to be constantly vigilant isn't it?

I find it much harder with three than it was with two, but I thought that might be the difference in age gaps. There's 7 years between dd1 and dd2, so they were never in competition with one another as their needs and wants were at such different stages.

I think that what random says about the effort made at school to be 'good' is true too, sometimes when they come out of school they're like coiled springs!

I'm back again. I have read all the recommended books and am trying to implement the strategies in them. It's not going well.

I have recently started a new part-time job, three days a week and dc2 and dc3 were going to a Childminder before and after school, and then full days in the holidays. After the first week of the holidays the Childminder extended the trial period from one month to two, as she was having some issues with misbehaviour from both dc. She has just given us notice as she feels she 'cannot give the dc the attention necessary ' and it's not fair on the two younger dc she looks after

I don't know what to do. DD is currently shut in her bedroom after shouting at DS, calling him an idiot and pushing him out of the way. I told her to sit on the step to think about why what she had done wasn't a nice way to behave and she kicked off spectacularly. I admit I lost my temper and smacked her backside and put her in her room I've told her that the way she is behaving is ruining life for our whole family and that if she wants to behave like that she can live in her bedroom, because we don't want her in our family anymore.

I feel awful, but already it is 100x more peaceful downstairs. Obviously she can't live in her room but what the hell do I do now, I really have
had enough.

I think you may need to consider a GP appointment, she really sounds very unhappy. Whether this is sibling rivalry gone too far, a problem with changes or something more tangible like ASD for example it seems as though you've reached the limit of what you can do without some support.

Incogkneeto you are me but a bit further down the line, I have just posted and then came across your thread. I'm at a loss too x

I completely agree with Andro I think you need to ask the GP for assessment/help with her behaviour. She is clearly showing this behaviour in more than one setting if the childminder was having problems with her.
I really hope you can get some help.