effects of CC

[papillon]

i just found this review in amazon.. does anyone agree ... disagree? I have heard of Gina Ford but not Elizabeth Pantley

...Australia the Association of Infant Mental Health have issued a warning against the method of "controlled crying" which she advocates as it can lead to psychological problems!! Gina's job is to train babies, she has no interest in the child's mental or physical (scheduled feeds can lead to dehydration and failure to thrive) well being for the future. She just wants her money for her quick fix methods! She's not even a mother herself, just a baby trainer. Babies aren't meant to be trained, they need to be nurtured and loved and leaving a baby to cry until it believes it has been abandoned and then shuts up to conserve energy is not my idea of caring for a loved one! Dissociation and learned helplessness are not pyschological problems i wish to instill in my baby for the sake of a full nights sleep! This woman makes me so cross! I second the reader (dated the 7th of november) who suggests a far kinder book to look at - "The no-cry sleep solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. At least she has had children so has some idea what she is talking about!

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Stop that Secur!! I don't want to know - fingers in ears - la la lah, can't hear you!

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Ahh well ds1 was the easiest going seetest most well behaved baby. And I used to smile smugly and think what a wonderful mum I must be, BIG payback time. No-one does tantrums like an autistic child. The good news is that when ds2 throws a proper 2 year old paddy we just laugh. His come nowhere near ds1. TOday ds1 smashed his head on his very flimsy bedroom window becuase someone was daring to sit in their car in the street (you either get in and drive, or get out and shut all doors- nothing else is tolerable). Just makes ds2's paddy about not being allowed yet another pack or raisins rather amusing (he's a big ham as well- he should go on the stage). Despite the nursery manager just telling me that ds2 is very single minded and just a little stubborn

Those days when I had the sweetest little baby who was the most relaxed and laid back in the antenatal group seem like a different lifetime. I tink aliens swapped him without me noticing.

Jimjams, I expect you know this, but there is a theory that the myth of the changeling child may have come from autistic children in history.

Jimjams that's quite spooky to me.

I was the envy of my postnatal group because I could just put DS1 down in his pram or car seat for a sleep, or put him on a playmat under a baby gym, and he'd be quite happy.

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A very interesting thread!

Just to jump back a bit in the argument, there has been a lot of talk about what is 'natural' in this discussion. But nothing that we do nowerdays is 'natural'. It is all well and good to say that cuddling your children to sleep is natural, you are quite right, it is. But it isn't natural to be living in isolation , away from your extended kinship group. In 'natural' surroundings mothers would be surrounded by female reatives who would share the child care burden. So if you had been without slepp , help would be at hand. But we don't live in those 'natural' environments, so for some other cures are essential.

We did cc with both ours at about a year. Never got above 10 minutes, and we built it up gradually. No fuss, and it worked well, for us. Not for everyone, but for us it was a life saver.

Well, just to add my twopenn'orth, I suffered sleep deprivation for over 3 years with ds- 4 or 5 times a night waking until he was nearly a year, then reduced to a couple of times when we co-slept. It was utter misery. And yet I thank God GF wasn't around then. It would have gone against all my instincts, but I'm sure I would have had to put up with endless advice to try it. I completely agree with you, two.

Jimjams, although I sympathise, that was quite funny about ds2 dancing, I have to say

I know tamum- he is hilarious. Poor child throws his best strop, falls to the ground and we just stand around laughing.

Dino the theory goes that autistic babies are either absolute screaming nightmare or very very very "good". In ds1's case I'm not sure he was all that autistic before 11 months, but he may have had weird visual things going on.

My freind with 3 children (2 autistic) said she knkew her third child was autistic as a baby as he used to love watching leaves. SHe took him to the SALTS at 8 months and told them he was autistic and they told her not to be so daft. He's coming up for 4 now and has a dx of semantic pragmatic disorder.

Ds2 was fairly laid back but I was pleased when he got bored of baby gyms very quickly.

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Jimjams, you sound a bit happier- dare I hope things are any better with ds1, or are you just feeling better?

Well my little girl is in dream land and I am about to follow her there.

I was interested in the topic re...natural...
The whole natural concept is such a wide open space...

i agree hmb that we live in an isolated environment these days.. I live the other side of the world from my family. That is pretty natural or normal these days.

dh and me carry dd in a baby carrier alot - which is probably natural it certainly feels good and she gets to see alot of the world that way. She is well known at the supermarket

We do not have a routine more a reassurance type familiarity rhythm... Routines probably were not around until books and reading became common and we all bought them!

I guess there are mistakes in some ways not having a routine... but dd and I am learning so much by not having a strict routine if that makes any sense to anyone. I also breastfeed her way too much to have any book type routine. Tonite she had a feed at 6.15pm then 7.00pm before sleeping!!

As for crying and natural... being a new mum and a soft touch ... I do not leave her to cry or rather loathe to do so..
I am finding that if I go and leave her to cry straight off the bat... then she just escalates... I cannot do that... she goes to sleep by herself well ... but if there looks to be some crying about to happen I calm her down so it reduces alot.
We were given a bed with wheels so that gets pushed abit... Will be having to wean her off that idea soon... she is growing out of her bed...
but when she was young she was so alert that going to sleep was a mammoth task... and abit of rocking helped a whole lot.
I guess what you said Secur about babes being put in trees is abit the same... the wind rocking them.

My SIL used a hammock with her ds as he was not a good day time sleeper and they were building next door... loads of noise. I might have to get one as my girl sleep erratically during the day also... another reason a routine has never happened.

My brothers wife grew up on a hippie commune. They were pretty into the natural thing and there would have been lots of helping hands. She did not have the same boundaries or restrictions that a baby in a one family household did. Her perception of what is bad or experimental was different.

Anyhow I was off to bed. Nite everyone

he's the same as usual tamum (usual being on fish oils not off the damm things). I'm quite looking forwarsd to starting ABA tomorrow just panicking about how we're going to afford it (his therapy is going to be costing over 100 pounds a week). I'm applying for anything that can be done from home. Still I'd rather be worrying about money and feel like we're doing something for him, than worrying about him. Only get one chance and all that.

Hi everybody sorry had to go out so just read everybodys thread. I just wanted to say that I know every human is different but I did not see any harm to my baby in following GFs book I did not see it as training but as teaching her the difference between night and day (the no eye contact at the night feed, the blackout material for the window etc).I also felt that giving her her feeds at set times and also her naps being at set times in he day would reduce her crying and mean she would not be stressed. But GF doesnt talk about CC in great detail she only suggests starting from 5 minutes checking baby then 10 mins and so on she does however suggest reading books written by proffessions on this subject. Hercules I do make my decisions about dd's everyday life, but as new first time mother, as you know, we dont know everything and after reading GF it gave me advice and a path to follow with my 6 week dd and gave me confidence and time to clean my house (she slept for 1 hour in morning/2 1/2 as a baby)and spend time with my dh. I would not have liked my dd in bed with me but just because its not what I would have done it does not mean that anyone that does it is a bad mother, so why today do I feel that I have been defending myself for following GFs routine and trying to emphasise how much I have loved and cuddled my baby and given her all the attention that I am sure you have given all of your children.

Sorry to go completely off-topic, but have you seen this paper , jimjams? I seem to be able to access the whole paper, so let me know if you can't and I'll email you the pdf if you want. (It was the metallothionein bit I noticed)

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Not having a go wog, just curious.

Yes please tamum! I can only get the abstract.

That is soooo interesting. ds1 definitey has a hyperpermeable gut (postiive result at Sunderland- and so so so responsive to dietary intervention). It is beginning to look as if his metallothionein is up the creek doesn't it? TF ds2 didn't get thimerosil.......

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WOG.....i have 3 boys and none of them 'slept like a baby' and when they did finally sleep- they associated 'eye opening' with screaming....i have neither read the book mentioned- or all this thread....however just read your last post and i REALLY feel you need someone to give you a (((HUG))))

With my 1st son i 'tolerated' his refusal to sleep and be hugged until he was 9 months old- i used controlled crying till he was a year- and got some better nights...however eventually he was prescsribed a strong sedative (vallergan) which was more for my benefit than his- and for years i felt guilty- as he is now diagnosed as Autistic....and this explains why he was so difficult etc- however at the time i managed the best i could- and i am gradually 'not taking th e blame'.

My 2nd was a screamer too- and i used to walk the length of our 90ft garden nightly trying to calm him- i tried everything- trips in the car,soothing music etc....and nothing worked. I resorted to CC and he responded better than ds1 (i was more confident).

Ds3 i 'trained' at 3 months....he was a generally easier baby- but demanding all the same.He also had the 'silent/dark' nightime feeds-cuddles but no chit chat.

All i can say that unless you have sat next to a crying baby whilst crying too (tears of despair and frustration that you feel such a failure to be so unable to confort your own baby) then you cannot critisise anyone for trying the CC method- Walk the Walk before you Talk the Talk!

A bit off-topic but does everyone here think routines are essential for babies? And if so, how do you define a routine, short of Gina's? I've never really felt I've got a "routine" with ds (although thanks be to whichever higher power you choose he did start sleeping at night from about 10 weeks). Have just gone back to work so he's in nursery but no routine there either, they say they've tried to persuade him to go for naps at more regular times but he's not having it. Although obviously he does get fed at the same time every day at nursery ? not always on the nail at home at weekends or my 'day off' in the week though. Does this make me a bad mummy? Am I going to cause him long-term psychological damage by not finding a routine?

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Have not read all the posts but was very interested in Alohas post about GF's thoughts on the whole 'she doesn't understand because she doesn't have children " criticism.
The idea that someone who has cared for as many babies as she has can't possibly know as much as a mother of one has always irritated me but I hadn't thought about how cruel it is too. Interesting to know that she would love to have had children herself and is hurt by the jibes.

I have to pick up on one point hercules - "How on earth did people manage before controlled crying?" It made me laugh to think of the image that conjurs up of our mothers and grandmothers generation as a soft hearted lot, constanly attending to their babies- never letting them cry for a second. Nearly every mother I know has come in for stick from their own mothers for 'going to them too quickly'.

Leaving children to 'cry it out' was also very much the norm to our grandparents generation. My friends gran told her that she used to park her pram at the bottom of the garden so she couldn't be disturbed by the crying and that many of her friends did too. Clearly I'm not advocating that (!) but I do think controlled crying has saved many a desperate mother and also enabled many a baby to learn to settle themselves to sleep - an important skill. I've been lucky with mine (Loosely on GF routines from week three but adapted to suit me and my dd) but a friend of mine' s baby cried from midnight to four every night for six months. Can you imagine what that was doing to her, not to mention her grumpy crotchety baby? At six months she spent a harrowing two nights doing cc. The following day he slept through for the first time ever and has been ever since. He's a sweet happy six year old now and the idea that he was at all 'damaged' by two nights of crying at six months of age is quite frankly ridiculous.

mrsforgetful thank you for that hug and heres one back ((hug)). I really do sympathise with your feeling of guilt but if it makes you feel any better I know a lady who did not find out her ds was autistic until he was 4 and she told me that her guilt was unbelievale as when she used to cook he would hide in the cupboard or when they went for meals he hid under the table and on these occassions she thought he was being "bad" and would drag him out screaming but as it turns out he didnt like the smell of cooking and she now feels that she must have been torturing him.

Ragtaggle I know what you mean my gran had 12 children so I find it hard to believe that she either had the time or the energy to cater to their every whim as babies, but I know as adults that all her living children adore the ground she walks on and have so much respect and admiration for raising them all. And the other point that you made about the pram at the bottom of the garden - my hv gave me a leaflet on babies crying and the advice on it indicated that if you could not take anymore of your baby crying that you should put them in their cot, shut the door, go into your livingroom put on music and have a cup of tea to give yourself space and not to worry about your child as the were safe - obviously to me this leaflet is to keep mums from going over the edge - which we read band see so may times in the news where either the mum has hurt herself or the baby - so I think in a controlled routine and calmer environment both mother and baby can bond and feel the love.