3 year old will not sleep, on my knees.

[S0tired]

Hello I'm new and desperate. My very active and precocious almost 3 year old DD is waking 2/3/4 times a night and screaming for up to two hours. She is 4th child so I'm not new to the game, but completely out of my depth. She won't lie down won't get in bed throws herself on the floor and kicks a bangs on the door. neighbours must hate me. I've been doing rapid return type sleep training. She is hoarse with screaming and we are all completely shattered. It's like a horror film. I feel awful. Before this all started she slept fine. Anyone been through this and won?

As she is your 4th I expect you have tried lots of different tricks, I won't fob you off with "She'd clearly rather be up and doing something than wasting her time sleeping, I am sure she loves to learn!" I'll just mention a couple so hope I don't offend if you already looked into these.

I was wondering about night terrors but by the sound of it she is awake and agitated so maybe it's more like confusional arousal? DD's upset and sounds as if she's in pain or angry about something. She may not be completely awake, even if her eyes are open because part of the brain is still asleep while another part of the brain has woken up. So she kicks, screams, resists cuddling.

Don’t offer comfort or try to wake her up as this can make things worse. Let her tantrum. Just make sure she is safe and you're there when she needs you.

I know it sounds lame but try sticking to a routine, make sure she gets enough sleep and eliminate any overstimulating activities. Is she intent on keeping up with her older siblings?

Does she have a daytime nap still? Can you cut out the nap and put her to bed a little earlier. Try and let her avoid screen time for at least an hour before bedtime.

Is there a medical reason - ears, tonsils - some medicines can also cause confusional arousal including sedatives and antihistamines.

Does she have eczema or any sign of a food allergy? eg dairy, wheat intolerance.

Any advice is welcome as this is outside of my previous experience. I've seen night terrors and this is not like that, though I take the point about confusional arousal. She is alert enough to be responsive to threats and bribes, ie: you will have a treat if...: ' I don't want a treat!' or you won't have X if: 'I don't want x!'. She is my first daughter... And rather bright and challenging. It is more tantrumy behaviour to my mind.

Yes, she has recently developed eczema, though this doesn't seem to bother her much it is quite generalised and I would be upset if I were her. Also, interestingly the GP prescribed antihistamine (piriton) syrup which we hoped would knock her out and seems to have had the opposite effect. We saw her again today and she said just what you say: that it can have the effect of arousal. So that's out.

We've very recently got into bedtime hour, but I'm suspicious and hate cbeebies, so think we will try dropping that too.

We also have tried to cut out sugary food and citrus.

Finally we just dropped the nap and moved into a bed, but not before this kicked off, in response to it and both seem to be neutral in that things are no better or worse, save that she can now get out of bed to scream, though before she could climb out of her cot and dangle in mid air between it and the tallboy.

Sigh... She's a nice little girl really. Thanks for your suggestions!

what is her daily routine like - meals / bed time exercise etc?

My dd1 started v similar behaviour at about 2. I did some research and I think she was getting "stuck" between sleep cycles and not being able to go back to sleep. Then it became a vicious cycle, the more over tired she got, the more it happened.

Anyway, to cut a long one down, I started giving her a small spoon of anti-histamine before bed (she also has eczema) to help her sleep deeper. After a few days it stopped !

Occasionally it starts happening again and I just do the same with the anti-histamine.

Well, we had one night's sleep but it was normal service resumed tonight. We've dropped the piriton as I think that definitely was having an adverse effect. I 'm very worried I'm dealing with a wider issue about her being over active. Does any one have any experience of this in a three year old girl, and views about whether diagnosis and labelling at this age is wise?

We have had similar issues with DD2 who was 3 in October. She was fine until we moved her into a bed about a year ago. Now she hates her bed, hates her room etc. she sleeps with us 99% of the time which is not helping me as I get pushed out of the bed! even though it is a super king. (How can a 3 year old take up so much of the bed?)

We are planning on doing some decorating. Moving DS into DD2's room then moving both the girls together into DS's bigger room and seeing if not being alone will help.

If she's in a large bed now, have you tried lying down next to her? DS needs someone to be with him when he goes to sleep, I often ended up in his bed (moved him in when he was 2 and I was pg) and although there wasn't much space we all slept much better. He is now 4ish and I maybe have to go to him once every ten days when he has a nightmare. If he won't try go to sleep immediately I either turn my back on him so I'm there but totally ignoring him or read something on my phone, it's really effective, he knows he's not alone but also that he has no interaction.

Have you checked for worms? That can wake them up.