Ok, so how could I handle this without punishment?

[NotQuiteCockney]

We're big on doing "hands on the wall" which is a bit like the naughty step, I guess, only we don't say "naughty".

It's where DS1 ends up when he behaves unreasonably - hits or punches anyone on purpose, or is manifestly not listening.

I'm not convinced it's working. For one thing, we spend a lot of time making sure he's doing hands on the wall "properly" e.g. not talking, not wandering off, not whatever, instead of just being bored.

For another, well, he's spending a lot of time on the wall. Not hours or anything, but it happens pretty often, over the course of a day.

How do other people deal with typical nearly-5 behaviour, e.g. fighting (not horrifically), not listening, throwing things, kicking things etc etc. We're not talking about tantrummy behaviour, which he doesn't do often, just garden-variety failing-to-listen and not bothering.

repeat and repeat if it's not listening stuff OR give up and decide xyz isn't important.
distract if it's about to kick off
counting 'bet you can't get your shoes on before I count to 10'
pick your battles, don't do punishments for minor infractions, save them for the big stuff
recognise and praise good behaviour, catch them being good and be specific with praise

that's my 2p worth anyway.

That makes sense. We do have to work on the praise thing.

"Hands on the wall" used to be saved for the big stuff, I think. I think it loses its force if it's used all the bloody time.

The not-listening is particularly trying, as he will start to do something unwise (play with something unwise, do something unwise that DS2 will immediately copy), I will say, "please don't X" and he will just carry on.

And when I get annoyed about it, he sometimes mocks me, which is, I'm afraid, immediate end-of-tether time.

If ds not listening is driving you mad you could try

slipping the word chocolate in to get his attention and then carrying on
or making him look at you before you even start talking and then saying 'ok, so now please do xyz'
or try talking nonsense in the middle, it might make him laugh and pay attention, so 'hey ds, please can you pick that toy up otherwise when that tiger comes to tea he will step on it and wonder who left it there and maybe EAT them!' well, not quite but you get the idea!

Oh, those are some good ideas, to move away from the boredom of constant nagging.

Message withdrawn

Yes, I should work on that more. And the praise.

I'm terribly weary these days, and DH is working long hours (and is, if anything, less patient with DS1 ). But if I put a bit more effort in, hopefully things will be better. It's not dreadful atm, but I'm not really enjoying DS1, and I should. He's reasonably well-behaved and interesting.