Are there red flags for a child and how do you help them?

[WaitingForMe]

Red flags are mentioned a lot on Mumsnet with regards to narcissistic and abusive men but when does that start?

I recently commented to DH that DSS2 had pretty much lost his egocentric outlook on life. He's five and has suddenly started being far more empathic to baby DS and generally outgrowing the idea that the world revolves around him.

We realised that DSS1 (aged 8) hasn't really. He genuinely seems to believe he is more important than anyone else. It seems to confuse him when we tell him off for trying it manipulate DSS2 into doing what he wants and insisting their desires are equally valid. He has some SN issues (dyspraxia, hyper sensitivity) and this has made us wonder whether he might be mildly autistic but it was looked at when we were trying to get to the bottom of the other stuff.

Is this how narcissists emerge? I love him dearly and my hopes for him are that he'll grow up and have a fulfilling career, fall in love and have a nice life. He's a great kid most of the time and it seems desperately sad if this egotism doesn't get grown out of. Are we meant to be doing something?

It feels hideously disloyal to be suggesting he could grow into an unpleasant adult but all those unpleasant adults were children once weren't they? For what it's worth DH is lovely and he and his ex weren't suited (so it's not imitating crazy narcissistic mum).

Anyone? I can't believe I'm the only person this has occurred to.

I know very little about narcissism, but from what I gather it seems to be linked in many cases to abusive or dysfunctional childhoods.
your little boy, from what you say, has a loving, supportive childhood. he is also still young. my DS is 10 and is also very egocentric (his brother, aged 7, is more emotionally literate that he is!)
I don't think you have anything to worry about Waiting !

Hmm I think you'd actually need some help to work out what the problem really is and then professional advice as to how to help him with it?

I don't know. I know that a lot of the narcissistic traits are actually normal childhood traits, though - one of the websites has a section called "Now we are six" with extracts from a book about six year old development and attaches it to the adult narcissist with striking similarities.

Maybe DSS1 is just a bit slower at getting there than DSS2? I think that instead of looking for signs and worrying, the best and most productive thing would be to try and help/encourage him develop in this area. I'm sure you can find some stuff if you google "empathy for kids" or "developing empathy in children", that kind of thing. It might be worth, for example, looking at a partially "unconditional parenting" approach where you encourage him to seek his own inner reward and conscience rather than relying on external cues/rewards. Although it may not be appropriate with SN - I don't know anything about what you mentioned he has.

I would be really, really reluctant to saddle a kid with a label because you're effectively "giving up" on them - even if, worst case, he did grow up and have some kind of disorder, at least if you've identified the (separate) issues earlier on you can try to give him some tools to cope with that particular facet of his personality and it may lessen the effects of it or enable him to "tune in" to a more sensitive side even if he blocks it most of the time.

Honestly I suspect this is more likely to do with (for example) him being the older child, and hence more used to getting his way, than any sign of a
personality disorder building.

You use the word egotistical - but it's pretty normal for children to think the world revolves around them and try to get their own way. All you can do is encourage him to share and compromise and demonstrate that sometimes things go other peoples way rather than his way. I suspect daily experience of having to compromise is more likely to be understood than discussions of how other peoples desires are just as valid - that might be a bit theoretical.

Thank you. I think I've been overthinking things a lot. The older child thing makes a lot of sense.

But I'm going it look into empathy exercises. I don't want to attach any kind of label but equally didn't want us to be burying our heads in the sand.

How much do you know about dyspraxia? Emotional immaturity goes along with the condition as does issues with self-esteem.

I don't know if your DSS lives with you full-time or how old your baby is but children with dyspraxia need a lot of prep with change.

You might be better off posting on the SN board - your DSS has a specific learning difficulty which has a huge impact on his emotional life.

TBH I'm still learning about it and clearly need to read up on the wider implications. It'll been about physio and horse riding and speed up writing classes.

Feel a bit of a muppet now

Young children are pretty narcissistic, anyhow, but even with dyspraxia, your 8yo DSS has so many more challenges than a typical 8yo. His nervous system is under responsive and he may have some autistic traits without having enough to be diagnosed with ASD. It's likely that what you are seeing is partly down to neurological immaturity, and partly down to the fact that everything is so much harder for him that it's harder for him to think outside of himself. Think of him as being as emotionally uncoordinated as he is physically uncoordinated and keep on being a lovely stepmum to him and help him through his interactions with people in the same way you would help him with stiff buttons or inside out sleeves.

And no need to be embarrassed, Waiting. SNs are a huge learning curve for all parents

Thank you. When we got the diagnosis I don't think we really "got" it. In many ways it's all still sinking in. When DSS2 was struggling with his coat zip it was because it was faulty so we bought a new coat. With DSS1 I need to get my head around it being that the whole world is slightly the wrong shape for him and damnit I can't buy him a new world.

I've started crying now.

I'm going to head over to special needs and do some reading. Then hopefully build something of a support network so I don't a mental stepmum to the poor kids mix!

most children are narcissists