alternative to time out for stubborn toddler

[NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown]

DS is 2.9 and like both his parents he's independent, strong-willed and doesn't like being told what to do! I had a very strict upbringing and I'm determined to do things differently...so I'm looking for a strategy to deal with persistent misdemeanors that works but isn't too harsh!

at the moment we ask DS once to stop doing something (right now he's into standing/jumping on furniture, rattling things, being agressive), then we give him a warning (usually that he'll be removed from the situation/room if he continues) and then we remove him, unless he's violent and then he gets removed immediately. it's a new technique because we've been quite inconsistent in the past (the transition from baby to toddler threw us somewhat) but there's some behaviours that we're resorting to time out in his cot for and I really want to find an alternative (my reasons briefly are that I feel time out isolates children and doesn't help them to deal with the feelings they are experiencing, it just makes them feel that they are wrong/bad, I'm talking from personal experience here, being ignored/berated whenever I showed an emotion, I wasn't given the tools to deal with them but instead shut away, it's just not something I want to be doing - I can totally see why parents want to and do use it but it's not for me. I'm also concerned at some point it won't work any more because he'll be able to get out of the cot, I don't want him getting hurt and I don't want to end up locking him in his room - there's no way he'd stay there voluntarily).

I have used it because sometimes I need a minute or two to calm down or because DS has lost control and someone is going to get hurt. For example I ask him to sit on the sofa rather than standing. He sits but then immediately stands again, I say 'this is your warning, please sit on your bottom or you'll be removed from the sofa', he does it but a few minutes later he's standing/jumping again (I let him bounce on his knees but not his feet) - I say 'now I'm taking you off the sofa' I do so and he repeatedly pushes past me to get back on it. I take him off, he gets back up. it becomes either a game or a battle of wills and he's really bloody strong and heavy! I feel at this point that I need to put him in his cot before he hurts me or by manhandling him to keep him off it I'm going to hurt him. We often get into this situation where he'll continue almost compulsively to do the thing I've asked him to stop doing/touching etc. He'll even start shouting 'I WANT to hit you!' whilst hitting me repeatedly when I've asked him to stop. Perhaps because of my own upbringing being hit or repeatedly ignored pushes my buttons and I feel the situation will only stop if I remove him from the room for a few minutes so I don't lash out and smack him (I never have and don't intend to but the urge is there sometimes when I'm ignored or hurt) and calm myself down so I can help him with HIS emotions.

I'm starting to be able to deal with tantrums quite well I think. I never give in to the reason for the tantrum but when I see it's calming a little I will ask if he needs help to calm down but before that I will tell him I'm there for him when he's stopped screaming and I ignore the behaviour whilst staying close by - he's even starting to ask for help to calm down mid-tantrum so I feel confident we're on top of that.

Sometimes I feel he's pushing the boundaries because he needs a good cry/tantrum but I don't know how to get in there and help him when he's pushing, pushing, pushing - he goes kind of manic - and this cot thing - I really want to stop removing him but he won't give me any personal space/seems like he can't physically stop himself doing something he shouldn't over and over when he gets worked up.

DH and I are attending a parenting course and thought it would help us find ways to deal with his behaviour and stop using the cot for time out, but it doesn't seem to be helping (we talk about the problems we encounter and why our children might behave a certain way but we don't really discuss what to do about it) - I'm thinking if we have a simple set of rules and a straightforward way of dealing with them being broken DS will get the message that we're united and mean business and will get bored of pushing boundaries...we're also trying to spend lots of one on one time playing with him and use descriptive praise everywhere possible but I really want to break this habit and find something gentle and consistent that works.

...so does anyone else have a willful and hyperactive child who compulsively touches things?? and if it is a cry for help with strong emotions, how do you get right in there and find out what's happening with them before you get on a journey to meltdown for everyone? I've long been wondering whether DS has a spectrum disorder/ADHD/sensory issue/dyspraxia - or is this just normal toddler stuff? (there's much more but not sure how relevant to this issue) - any help or experience appreciated

I can relate to your post. I was over disciplined as a child and also determined not to do the same.

DS is 3.4 and i have a DD 6m. DS is willful, strong-minded, opinionated, v active, no yet in control physically or emotionally, contrary and also loving, intelligent, thoughtful and sensitive. He's overly physical with his sister and when we tell him off his behaviour just gets worse.

IMHO this is normal behaviour in a 3 year old boy. Your DS sounds normal too so I'd hold off thoughts of him being on the spectrum for a good while unless there areother things.

I have found reading as many books as possible about parenting to be really helpful. For what you're looking for I'd recommend the No Cry Discipline Solution and of course How to Talk. I'm also reading a v interesting book at the moment written by a child psychologist which explains why neither reward nor punishment will ever work long term. It also has big bits about anger management for parents, as does No Cry, which I've found helpful.

The episode you mentioned about jumping on the sofa: tbh it's easy to see from the outside that your response made it a game for him. And you're being inconsistent with instruction - a child of this age isn't going to understand that he can kneel up and bounce on the sofa but not stand!

There are loads of tips of how to handle that sort of situation in the books i mentioned...
Sorry baby waking...

Psychology book is Peaceful parent, Happy Kids by Laura Markham. Sorry on phone so can't link.

Hang on in there.

I didn't want to read and run. It sounds like normal toddler behaviour but you do need to manage the hitting.

Try to identify your dc's triggers eg is he tired, is he hungry, does he need to run round outside and blow off steam? I think distraction is a good technique for defusing situations before they reach meltdown.

If you're upset then I'd remove yourself from the situation not your ds. Sometimes dcs can trigger responses in us that are disproportionate to their actions. If that's the case then take yourself into a different room for a few minutes.

I also wonder if you're worrying about it all too much? Perhaps you have a real fear of repeating your parents' mistakes and it's created anxiety round all your parenting decisions? Try to relax a bit more and have faith in your decisions.

On a practical level, you're already attending a parenting course. I'd recommend 'How to Talk'. It's recommended all the time on MN and it is brilliant and has lots of techniques like drawing your anger, etc.

oops - xposted!

My immediate thought is "why is he allowed to jump on the sofa on knees but not on feet?" If I don't understand this, does he? Have you explained to him why you don't want him to do it? If not, it invariably becomes a power struggle because to him, you're just stopping him doing something which is fun, but offering no explanation as to why or offering an alternative.

Sorry that wasn't meant to sound like a criticism. My 2yo DD is a nightmare at times and I don't know what to do! It's just their age is a testing time. And boys are much more well, boisterous than girls!!! I find with mine, if I explain things and allow her to make her own decisions about how to behave, and praise good behaviour, this usually works. c

I am reading Playful Parenting at the moment, on the recommendation of another MNer in response to a post seeking ideas in managing DD. It is helpful, both in terms of strategies, but in thinking about how small people see the world and how we can help them make sense of it. Rules like "you can bounce on your knees but not on your feet" just don't make sense to a little child (don't worry, we've all done things that in hindsight seem inconsistent).

In this house, certain things are stopped as soon as they start. Jumping on sofas being one of them - junp.on the sofa and I will put you on the floor.

Other things, say, putting something in her mouth gets (1) dont put that in your mouth. If you do it again I will take it away (2) take it away.

Naughty step (in our case - sit.in your buggy), is for tantrums, strops or crossness.

This old MN thread has got some useful strategies on it too.

For DD, all of her challenging behaviour is to do with control (her being in charge, not us). Understanding this has been really helpful in managing it.

thanks all for some great stuff, I have 'how to talk' and 'playful parenting' so will try and find the time to read what I've not read and re-read what I have and all the dozen other parenting books I have I'm on my phone so can't answer everyone very easily but have taken everything in. I do think I worry too much but there's lots of stuff in the past 6 months I've become really confident in handling so I'm sure it's just a matter of time, experience and lots of research before this issue isn't an 'ishoo' any more

1-2-3 magic extraordinarily effective on 2.11 yr DS.
Also The Happiest Toddler on the block by Dr Harvey Karp has great stuff on simplifying language and managing tantrums in a cheerful and stress free way.

how is his diet?
sleep?
ecxercise?

ime (2dc and nanny for some years) these are the major factors for unruly behaviour.

ensure that dc goes out for at least an hour a day. vigorous running around type of thing. go to the park or just round the block. softplay doesn't have the same effect ime, but it's better than nothing.

offer plenty of varied foods. I know dc go through stages of disliking things or not eating much at all. but if what they are offered is nutricious they will at least have some of it.

try moving bedtime around. just by going to bed 20 min earlier or later you might catch the phase that is just right for dc.

Mine is three.

Counting to three works a treat at the moment. But I am dreading the day when she clocks that all I am actually doing is counting, and haven't a clue what to do if she persists.

I am also really trying to do natural consequences wherever possible. So don't want to eat dinner. Fine, no skin off my nose. No pudding. And you will be hungry.

Bouncing on things, I have let her fall (catching her so she dosent hurt herself, but enough to give her a shock. That seemed to work, it really reduced the bouncing on things, and made her realise I am banning things to protect her, not to be a killjoy. It was very noticeable that she was a lot more obedient after that incident. For a while.

oh yes 1,2,3 magic..another on my wishlist!

diet - not great but only because he is a typical fussy toddler. I offer a vast array of foods, he eats bread (changed to a preservative that doesn't cause tantrums), cheese, eggs, only tomatoes, peas, sweetcorn as veg but loads of fruit, loads of cereal, most dairy, most things like pasta, sometimes rice.

sleep is good mostly, he is usually asleep by 7.30 and still has 1-1.5 hours nap in the early afternoon or is a complete nightmare (I will probably need counselling when he drops it )

exercise...hmm, I make sure he has a walk at least once a day and I do notice a difference if he doesn't have it, but he's quite awkward (didn't roll, crawl, pull up to standing or cruise - went straight to walking at 12.5 months so has missed out on a lot of practice and getting flexible I think) and can only run for a few minutes (unless I don't want him to)

counting to 3..yes I've tried that, usually saying I'm going to count to 3 and if you haven't done blah blah blah I will do it for you...it usually just means he knows he's got a few more seconds leway before I step in or will have a tantrum the minute I get to 3 and suddenly decide he wants to do it but still refuse. I honestly I think I could count to 100 and he'd still carry on ignoring me

sorry I meant I give him the opportunity to run around and he doesn't want to, he's increasingly asking to be carried or to go in the pushchair but I think he's just had a growth spurt so it may have thrown him a bit. I think I need to start using the pushchair less as he's coming up to 3 so will need to train him not to grab everything in shops leave more time to get places I think

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's posted in response to my OP. I put it in 3 different places as I wasn't sure which aspect to focus on, I've been really overwhelmed by all the positive responses and advice.

Today has been a good day. It started off with DS asking again for the hungry caterpillar on DVD. I didn't say no because I knew it would lead to a tantrum, I just went into the living room and laid a blanket on the floor and said 'where's my little caterpillar?' I then preceded to roll him up in a 'crysalis' whilst he was in hysterics, I got him to wriggle free and then we made wings from the blanket to make him into a beautiful butterfly. He loved it and asked to repeat it over and over again. Then we rolled up DD and then we had a tea party with all the dolls. We've also made Christmas decorations out of clay. He's been so happy and affectionate and playful all day and so have I.

I think part of the problem is having children just stirs up a lot of childhood feelings without any real explanation of what they are or why they're there. I just feel crabby a lot of the time. I don't want this to turn into a pity party but my parent's never played with me..yet another thing I'm learning for myself 30 years later. Oh well, I've got lots of resources at my disposal and 2 gorgeous, funny, intelligent, independent bundles of fun to learn it all with.

Thank you all, this will all pass so quickly so I'm going to try and chill out and enjoy it

Great post nicecup. I think all any of us can do is try every day to be the sort of parents we want to be. I'd like to look back in 10 years and know there wasn't much more I could have done.

It's so easy to revert back to the way you were treated as a child, it's much harder to ignore the rising anger and make the day fun. The rewards though are stunning.

I failed today. I'm exhausted from dd not sleeping and DS was just pushing every button. I got grumpy and had to walk away at one point, but I didn't ever lose it and we ended the day well and I'll try harder tomorrow. Most days aren't like this but none of us are perfect and preschoolers test the patience of saints.

I want to help my son be a good person who cares about others, and achieves his potential. I also want him to know I will always love him and be there for him. This is more important than getting angry about whether he's expressing his tiredness/unsettled feelings etc by trying to rugby tackle his baby sister for the hundredth time...

Nicecup I think I posted on one of your other threads, and I was so delighted to hear the caterpillar story. I used to love it when my mum (occasionally) played that sort of game with me, and I did it loads with my children. I used to pretend the children were rocks in the forest (this was when they were wrapped up towels after bath) and then pretend to sit down and discover they were alive and not rocks at all but bunnies (I didn't actually sit on them I hasten to add) They adored the sensory side of it, the joking.

I also wanted to reassure you that I used to feel very frustrated by my children's behaviour often enough - and a lot of it was making my life more difficult for myself than I needed to - putting too much pressure on myself to have nutritious homecooked meals etc, when all the children wanted really was just to have a relaxed, calm mum, not necessarily all the wonderful things I was providing for them in form of stimulation and toys and outings. They just wanted to engage with the world and me, and that was simpler than I made it.

Also, was just thinking the other day that we suffer a lot from being alone with small children, and not watching other parents parenting. We get all our guidance from books and that makes us quite fearful and intellectualised, also quite frustrated and tense about all the things we should be doing, or we perceive "normal parents" do. The more you can be with other mums and dads, talk to them, hang out with them, the easier it all becomes and instinct kicks in. Also when you see other people parenting ineffectively it is so so obvious - sympathy for them and their children is sadly, very instructive.

where's the 'like' button?

Swanhilda - my DC love playing rocks after their bath! They curl up under their towels and DH and I poke and prod, or throw teddies at them to try to make them giggle, then find eg toes to tickle, hair to ruffle before being incredibly surprised to discover that they aren't rocks after all!

I didn't know anyone else played this game too!

Hi, I’m just wondering what your son is like now, 10 years after this post? My son is identical to everything you’ve explained and I’m exhausted by it all. Please tell me there is light at the end of the tunnel? I’m feeling like a terrible parent right now. Need reassurance. Thanks