Please help threebob with my research about preschool siblings.

[threebob]

I am researching how to teach pre school music classes (small 12 children ones, not the sing along type) to mixed age classes. I will be one of the first 3 teachers in NZ to get this diploma (if successful)

Most text books tell you to seperate children into age ranges for best results - but this is only practical in preschools and with first children.

I am looking for peoples opinions and experiences of having more than one child and going to groups (doesn't have to be music)

Can't help with what is 'best' (which i suspect is individual to each set of siblings e.g. whether they'd work better together or separated.

But - i do know that most dance/gym classes around my area (in uk) are seperated by age's and so those parents who have more than one child have to hang around for two sessions while each child has their turn.

I am trying to get away from that hanging around. I find that you end up with 2 children for 2 sessions anyway (as the parents stay) and so by the second half hour you have 2 exhausted children you can't do anything with, instead of 2 engaged children working at different levels.

threebob, have you heard of a franchise orgnisation called Music Together - it's aimed at mixed age-groups up to five from 6months or so. Includes music and movement. We participate in this over here in the US. It's fantastic, my two ds's aged 4/3 love it and materialwise you get two cd's one for home and car and a music book. Involves learning rhythm and movement and songs. Great great fun for all the family. If you want more info let me know and I'll email it over to you willingly. It's complete enthusiasm and excitement. We play instruments every week.

How big are the classes?

I think to be taught by age is silly, it should be by ability anyway! But for music all ages and abilities can mix and enjoy.
Well thats my opinion.
My children rage from 15 years to 21 months

what a fantastic idea, threebob! I would have loved to do something good with the children without having to leave one at nursery. Actually, my older daughter ended up missing out once the youngest started Tumbletots for instance, as I didn't want to go back and forth all day long (town being 10 miles away). So I think this is a great idea. So many women have two or 3 children in close succession.

It's a funny topic for me to pick really as I have an only child!

again can't help much as only 1 child
BUT
I do think this is a good idea (and I've been to your classes ). And age is no real indicator of how much they'll engage - my friend has continued going to Jo Jingles (whereas I couldn't be bothered frankly) but got very frustrated because they wouldn't move her daughter up to the 'walking' class as she was a late walker - however she was obviously the child who was the 'best' at all the music activities and so more than ready to move 'up' into the next class (whatever moving 'up' means in a Jo Jingles context!).

It would have been absolutely infuriating to have chidren of different age and be hanging around for the appropriate class, whereas as far as I could make out they were all much of a muchness. Also of course some of the mothers got competitive about moving into the next class!

When I was a student I used to teach holiday music classes - slightly older children, 4-8ish - and we used to do various activities but with different bits for each child according to age and ability. For instance, we used to do the Haydn 'Suprise' symphony for the 'concert' at the end of the course. Any older children who could play an instrument played the simple tune, children who could reliably bash something did the 'suprise' on cue, some children did a graphic score, some just milled around holding pictures of instruments (if they were really hopeless!), one could pretend to conduct etc.

Possibly not too relevant to you & preschoolers, but my point is that they don't all neccesarily have to do exactly the same activity, you can come up with an overall theme/idea, and they can all do something towards that that suits their age/ability.

I don't know if this will help,but dd1 has been going to Scottish country dancing classes since she was 4 (nearly 11 now) and this is all ages together. I think its great to have a mix of ages as the older ones (some right up to their 20's) help the little ones and in turn as they get older and more experienced they help the newbies.

I go to a fab music group .. it is always structured round a different story with songs and rhymes made to fit in and the kids dressed up in different costumes .. which works across all ages .. and most importantly there are adult jokes which totally go over the head of kids but make it easier for a parent .. especially when you're not in first child glow (going through it again with subsequent siblings can be wearing at a lot of groups)

so for example last week we took a trip to London

wheels on the bus .. to get there
Pussycat, Pussycat rhyme
4 and 20 blackbirds song (kids dressed up as king, dairy maid, 5 blackbirds) etc

it just seems to work really well

sobernow - that sounds awful and exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid.

MrsJohnCusack I have to laugh at them wanting to be promoted - it happens to me too. As a general rule the most musical ones are the non movers, because they are the ones who have sat still long enough to take it in! It's the teacher's responsibility to ensure that these children are stretched in a way that does not require movement, call and resonse singing, instruments and hand play songs for instance.

I have had to insist this term that the 9 month old first borns at the start of the term (who will only be nearly 11 month olds at the end of the term) stay in the baby class, rather than try to cut it with the 20 month old first borns.

I do have some non walkers in my toddler class because it was the only time their mums could come, but it does look exhausting picking them up for the movement parts.

The music and Song group we go to is aimed at mixed ages, the leader tends to set the activities and themes that most ages can key into and set activities which the younger children can do with parents help and teh older children can do alone. This means that you have a circle of parents with younger children on knees adn older children in the middle.

During the session there are sections where all the children are up and about and intercacting and sections where all teh children are with parents working together as well as the sections where they are more seperated.

I have found it works very well as the leader is strong and each week she gives a little speech to the children about sharing adn interacting fairly etc so it is rare for there to be any complications from children getting into arguments.

I am not sure exactly what information you are needing, but I hope some of this is of interest at least!

SecurMummy - that's is what I'm looking for thanks. How big is the group (how many children).

Also, do you think the little ones miss out in any way from being back from the action and away from their siblings.

I took DS to a music and movement class from when he was about 6 months old. He loved it and we continued going when DD was born when he was 18 months old (there is even a video of me dancing with him when she is 10 days old!).

After a while he got bored of it, ran around, didn't want to sing or dance so we stopped after a few months (4 or 5). Plus it was an extra stress to timetable it with DD's morning sleep.

We picked it up again when DD was 18 months and she loves it but DS is now at playschool. There are no siblings I can think of over 3 as most seem to be at playschool (I think we start earlier than NZ so this may be a factor to consider). I think most mothers enjoy it as one-to-one time with their 'baby'.

I have a number of friends who come with 2 children most with a similar age gap or less. The teacher always offers to have a child on her legs for the bouncy ones but most mothers (there are a few fathers) have both children on their legs. The instruments range from shakers which the babies suck to xylophones for the older ones. The main difficulty seems to be dancing with both children when both want to be held.

I'm now pregnant and finding it hassly for the movement bit as DD (28 months) won't dance by herself but likes being whizzed around. She loves the singing and the instrument bit but not the movement and I'm starting to get a bit fed up with it - with her rather than the class itself!

The class is about 35 minutes long with 10 minutes singing, 10 minutes singing with instruments, 5 minutes movement (standing like a tree, on tip toes, etc.), 5 minutes with a CD - flamenco music, country dancing, etc. and then 3 quiet, sleeping songs. It's a drop-in class which I think is great with small children and illnesses, holidays, sleeping, etc.

Gosh, HTH!

Well I'm scraping the barrel of my memories for this as dss are now 7 & 8, but we went to a fab music group when they were tiny. Mixed ages from as young as they liked up to school age: it worked really well.

The sessions were 45 mins long - I think. Max of c. 15 children in a session - I think, parents with children. Two leaders. Very structured, loads of percussion instruments - but structured use of them, but loads of tolerance as well: so the 2 yr-olds who were going through the phase of "I just want to run round the circle and not really join in" had the freedom to do so. We went to the group for about 18 months until we moved, I think. I wouldn't have gone to a group if both children were not included.

What do you want to know?

But I would have happily enrolled either of them to do unaccompanied small (c.5 kids) group music classes - semi formal "music theory/rhythm/musical notation/singing" sort of stuff - at age 4 if anything had been available.

I take my DS and DD to the same music class. The class is actually for children aged 3 and over and DS has been going since she was born and she is 2 now because I take my DS.

Most of the time it is brilliant, DD joins in beautifully and really enjoys it. The only issues I have had have not been with the content of the sessions but actually with some of the other Mums if, for example, DD had a strop about playing the claves instead of the tambourine, I would get shot a few dirty looks. I, however, have thick skin and don't actually care what they think as DD was behaving totally normally for a child of her age and I am paying for her to sttend and she was not that disruptive and I did deal with it kwim?

The funny thing is, these Mums little babies are now at the same age as my DD was when she used to have the occasional strop and nthey are doing the exact same thing and I do try to wipe the smug smile off my face thinking BTDT!

Haven't time to read thread - so may be repeating other people. I taught group at home for a few years. Group size was 8 - 10 iwht their parents - sat in a circle with their parents. Any more children and if you want to have turns at doing things it takes too long and the others get restless. I had under ones groups - no siblings 8 pre class, and then all other preschholers - siblings welcome to attend. both classes half an hour. Have also been to different classes with my own - some age mixed some not. Good luck with it. it worked well for me I taught about 7 classes a week at one point. The baby stuff went down really really well. Good Luck - happy top answer any questions

roisin - the class for 4 year olds, do you mean once they started school as an after school thing?

apron strings - did you have the same people each week?

WestCountrylass - if the group is for 3+ and everyone brings their babies, isn't it in fact a mixed group - do you you pay for your daughter so she can use the instruments, or does everyone have to pay?

ds3 goes to a music/movement class that takes children from 12 months to 4. Ds1 went to monkey music that split the ages. Both work fine imo.

Well, probably threebob. (DS1 didn't start school until after he was 5, so I guess I was thinking of that.) Depends on your setting as to when kids start school, and how much energy they have when they do.

DS2 started piano lessons when he was 6 3/4, which was about right for him for individual lessons. But I would have been happy for him to go to more low-key, less intensive group music sessions much younger iyswim.

Hi threebob, the groups are 15 children at the most. I don't think any of the children miss out, the little ones get some one on time interacting with the parents whilst the older children get to be a bit more independant and try things for themselves. Also they get time where they are expeted to behave nicely with their sibings without direct involvment of the parents which is a great thing IMO. Finally they get sections where the are with both the parent and the sibling.

There are a few groups run by this leader at different times and locations and they are all run with mixed age even though she could easily set up age groups. When I asked her about this she explained that IHO groups at this age should not be about learning Music or Dance or whatever the group is aimed at, it should be about learning a skill aongside learning social and family skills. She aslo stated taht she felt it was detrimental to pre-school children to be st and made to watch for an hour (or however long) because they cannot be expected to understand that lngth of time, rather it is better to take turns in a group setting where they may have to wait a few minutes - a length of time they can understand and deal with.

Let me know if tehre is anything I can find out for you, the leader is very happy to chat about her whys and wherefores!

SM xx

SM - if I could email this lady that would be fantastic - do you think you could set that up?

Threebob, I will try to get it set up, although I am not going this week so I won't see her until next week.... is that soon enough or too late?

It's heaps of time - assignment not due in until November.