Are some toddlers just bad sleepers or am I getting it all wrong?

[MissDiscombobulated]

My DS is 22 months now. Since about 13 months old he was waking up almost every night for 2-3 hours. About a month ago we thought we'd had a breakthrough. We stopped giving him pudding (fruit/yoghurt) after dinner and stopped trying controlled crying but instead just stayed with him until he fell asleep. This seemed to work and I concluded that the sugar was making him hyper and that the controlled crying was stressing him out and making him wake up more at night. When he did wake up he would fight sleep and keep one eye open waiting for me to try and sneak out the room and then begin crying again.

The problem now is that it takes well over an hour of patting him, holding him, trying to get him to lie down etc before he goes to sleep. This pushes the intended bedtime of 8pm to 9-9.30.

He goes to nursery 3 days a week and gets an hours nap there at 12ish. Because we don't get home until 6.30 we have to give him his dinner and then bath him and so cannot realistically move the 8pm bedtime earlier. We try quiet calming bedtime routine but he is energetic and as soon as he has had his milk wants to jump down and carry on playing/running!

The daytime naps at home are slightly easier in that I hold him for about 20 mins until he falls asleep.

Can anyone give me any pointers or recommend a sleep trainer. I'm not keen on CC and think when I have tried it in the past I have probably not done it wholeheartedly.

I would ideally like to crack this before he moves into toddler bed or am I unrealistic and some DCs are just this way inclined?

I should also add he has had a lot of colds since xmas as a result of being in nursery which I suppose is not conducive of a good night's sleep.

I do believe that some children (like some adults) are crappy sleepers. DS is 21 months, and we're still getting night wakings, which get worse when he's ill/teething, and its been bad with the hot weather.

We found that giving him his tea late made bedtimes that bit worse, and now he has it at nursery, so I'm wondering if that's an option for you. We have to supply it, but several kids eat tea there so it's a social thing for him too. I really wanted us to be able to eat together at tea times, but it really wasn't working for him as it was all a bit rushed before bath and bed. We just eat together at weekends now.

I don't really have the answers, as we are also at the having to shh and hand hold until he sleeps, but I can say that tea at nursery has helped. We've stuck to a fairly strict routine of bath, story and bed so he's asleep by 8 at the latest. If we try and keep him up later we just end up with overtired hysterics - he's not the kind of child who will just happily fall asleep in his pushchair if we're out late like some do (we learned from bitter experience!)

Btw, I type this while hand holding him back to sleep so I'm aware I'm far from an expert in this matter!

Thanks Ipswichwitch. Your experiences sound v similar. LOL at the handholding and typing - good multi tasking mum you are!
Great suggestion regarding tea at nursery - I'm going to suggest that when I collect him today. I'm puzzled as to why they don't get 2 decent meals there anyway. They have lunch at 11.30 then some snacky bits at 3.30. I would have thought it made more sense to give them all a decent tea at 5ish. God knows we pay enough!

Our nursery does lunch and snacks but tea not included as many parents pick their DC up before tea time so to them I guess there's no point doing tea if only a few kids are there. It really has made evenings easier for us with DS having tea there, and means we have more time to play/ unwind before bed.

We're having several night wakings here, which I think is a combination of teething and the heat. I'm hoping for some sort of breakthrough before Christmas - I'm due DC2 then!!

Was going to suggest tea at nursery too!

Miss you are probably doing this already but once ours have had their bath, they don't go back downstairs. They clean their teeth, get their night clothes on and at that age had books, milk and bed.

Thought you might like the the ISIS website. Its a really good place for finding out what is normal. You might also like foods that help you sleep and the book the No Cry Sllep Solution for toddlers.

Just had a look at the ISiS website and its very interesting reading, thanks jilted
I will also second the no bringing them downstairs after bath. MIL keeps banging on about doing it, saying he'll settle better (erm, how?). We have found that if we do, DS is wide awake and thinks its still play time.

I really sympathise, DD was is like this. I also think tea at nursery best. Something else possible to try is, DD doesn't have a bath, a lot of them don't really need a full bath every evening, DD has a wash at the sink of hands and bum. As it's been hot recently she's been In the sink in a puddle of cool water - that's another possibility, in one book I read, it said warm water raises the body temp a bit making it hard to get to sleep as body temp falls as we get tired and ready to sleep.

I do think some just are this way and it's so hard to know what's going on for them. They do grow out of it though, keep going, it Will end

Thanks for the links jilted, will check them out now. Unfortunately we have a ground floor flat and DS's room is pretty small so we bring him in the front room for milk and wind down. All his toys are in the front room too and I've been thinking lately that this is quite a temptation as he can see them all as he drinks his milk, hence wanting to jump straight down and play! I've been meaning to pack away some of the more baby toys and make some space so might be a good time to have the rest put away in boxes in the evening.

Interesting point about the bath Zoidberg. DS loves his messy play at nursery and won't wear his bibs anymore so I can't really skip the bath, although having said that, I just gave him a wash down this evening as he was at home with me all day and not too grubby. I started bedtime at 7.30 and he was asleep by 8.30. Not a peep since so fingers x

Thanks again for all your advice. My brother has 2 DS who both slept through the night from week 1 and have since been great sleepers. I guess to some extent it is the luck of the draw!
Oh and good luck with DC2 Ipswich :-)

Just wanted to say they do grow out of it. Been there twice - neither of mine slept through til they were 4, and when they did I was so conditioned to waking up in the night I carried on doing so for 6 months ! The upside when they are older is that my kids don't get cranky with lack of sleep - they can stay up late and still be up for school ! They are teenagers now and I don't have to kick them out of bed, like most of their friends. I tried everything with mine, but nothing worked for more than a few weeks. So I changed my attitude and just accepted it - strangely calming thing to do. I had all sorts of advice thrown at me but the most useful was to grab sleep when I could. So I was often to be found at 2pm with a sleeping baby and a toddler in my arms (while I snoozed on the sofa & she watched Tweenies). Good luck and remember it won't be for ever - they do sleep one day !!! Best wishes - its hard work

My DDs room is pretty small, I'm talking not big enough for a full single bed, I used to give her the milk and story sat on the floor ny her cot. Might be worth a try.

Don't believe everything you here about babies sleeping through either. When my DS was waking through medical issues mil and sil kept going on about how well dn slept. Its only years later that they've admitted it just wasn't true.

A lot of toddlers are just crappy sleepers. I know two mums with toddlers around 2 years old and still not sleeping through.

How did you do your CC? I tried it before but it was stressing DD out. She just couldn't fall asleep when crying hysterically. Until I read Christopher Green's toddler taming and it's a light bulb moment for me. He said that toddler can get hysterical very quickly. And once hysterical, they just won't stop crying and they forgot why they are crying in the first place. The point of control crying is to go in often enough to stop them crying and get into hysteria. Once I recognised this, I switched to going in and stopping DD crying at least every 5 min. Or staying next to her bed and holding my hand over her stomach, and then slowly withdrawing out of her room. Basically trying to help her to go to bed in calm and relax way.

How does he nap at nursery? Perhaps he has a routine there that you could build on at least for nap times?

OneLittleToddleTerror I did the CC by starting with a few mins return and working upwards. I think we got to well over 20 mins at one point. He never got hysterical but I just hated listening to the crying and not responding and so I guess I wasn't consistent with it every night. Since we don't do that anymore, he doesn't go to sleep in a state of distress but falls asleep nicely with me patting him. The night of my last post, he woke up at 2.45am and didn't go back to sleep until 6am! I was so tired, I got in the cot with him after patting for 30 mins did not work. After 2 unsuccessful hours in the cot I bought him into my bed and finally held him tightly in my arms when at the end of my tether at 6am. He fell asleep a few mins after! The last 2 nights he has slept through but I'm not holding my breath! Did you get a breakthrough with your CC regime? How long did it take and did it last?

Sunnysummer - the nap at nursery is pretty early at 12 noon and usually he lasts an hour or so. I do try to mimic this at home but it's usually an hour later as I'm not that organised to have lunch ready at 11.30!

Nursery won't give him his tea there as health and safety rules won't let me bring my food onto their premises.

JiltedJohnsJulie - I think this is def worth me trying, thank you

mumsneedwine - 2 more years for me then! lol I have reached a level of acceptance re: lack of sleep but did want to post up anyway in case I was missing a trick!

Just to add to the chaos, my car has broken down so we're public transporting it to/from work/nursery. Today I got home after 6.30. Quickly put the dinner on and gave him a strip wash. DS decides to have a complete meltdown about putting on his nappy and PJs. Meanwhile the pan is boiling over and there's mess everywhere. When he finally calms down, he doesn't wants me to hold him so I have to try and finish the dinner one handed with 2 stone under my left arm. Dinner finally gets served at 7.30pm. DS finally snores at 9pm!! DP is away all week. Oh the joy :-)

he doesn't wants me to hold him

Ditch baths on nursery nights and just let him chill and do what he likes down stairs until 8-8.30 even 9.

I find DCs whether toddlers or much older children are no different to adults and they need some down time after the days activities and tea to calm down and unwind.

Perhaps I'm hopeless at bathing children, I tried to do it as rarely as possible and not at bed time. My two still love swimming. Baths just equalled play, riot, find more toys.

The total opporsite of relax before bed.
Great to kill time if we had tea early, but a total disaster if we were running late.

Hopefully you have cracked it now anyway :)

If you haven't, there are other things you can try

• just keep doing what you are doing, but tell him you need to go to the toilet and will be back and go back in 5 minutes, keep repeating staying out longer each time. (Being so young they have no concept of 'why is she going to the toilet so often).

• Sticker (or other) rewards for going to sleep like a Big Boy (ie alone).

• When you get your car back, try giving him a picnic tea in the car on the way home (if the drive is far enough) and reducing the amount of milk he has before bed - part of it might be that he's eating/drinking too close to bed and finding it hard to settle.

On the other hand, he might just be missing you and getting your attention when he can??

I presume that when he wakes at night he isn't getting lots of 'rewards' (cuddles, chatting, playing, milk, toys etc)?? Basically you need to make it as unrewarding as possible to wake in the night.

He will grow out of it sometime before he's 18 :0)

I think the key may be feeding him earlier for wind down time after.

Would you consider a slow cooker? Do the prep the night before, chuck in in the morning and then you can serve it straight way when you get home. Or batch cook and then just stick in the microwave when you get back.

Just for this week when your on your own is there somewhere you could eat out on the way back from nursery? We have an Italian nearby that does a fab early bird menu really cheaply and it's always full of families with young kids, as is the local pub. Both serve v quickly. I know it seems like more work, but he'll get time 1 on 1 with you, someone else cooks and no dishes to sort later - it really does work as a treat for you both.

Personally, I'd cuddle him to sleep, then gradually withdraw every few days/week - cuddle leaning into cot, hold hands through cot bars, then sit on a chair next to the cot, then move the chair further and further away til its out of the door.

Quite a few people on here recommend Millpond, but I've no experience of them.

Good luck, it does get very wearing, but it will stop and he will sleep eventually!

Thanks StarBallBunny! I'm trying to bath every other night if he's not too grubby. Today his (mixed race) hair was full of sand so it had to be done! I could try keeping him up later 8.30/9 as you suggest as long as it doesn't take another hour for him to actually go to sleep. Would save me bending over the cot for an hour!!

ChippingInHopHopHop - I did leave the room for 10 mins tonight (about 35 mins in) and returned when he had just started to cry. By that stage he was slumped over the side of the cot so I just laid him down and he went straight off. Surprised that it took him 10 mins to react to me going as when we were doing CC the reaction was immediate on leaving the room. So yes def think the 5 min toilet intervals are worth a go!

Most def need to be more organised about dinner. I do batch cook sometimes and will investigate slow cooker. The gradual withdrawal method you mention HPsauceonbaconbuttiesmmm is something I haven't tried yet so will add it to my armoury!

Thank you lovely mumsnetters for taking the time to post - v much appreciated and loads of great ideas which I am going to print off and try out. Amazon just delivered "No Cry Sleep Solution" JiltedJohnsJulie so thanks too for that recommendation.