stuck in a rut baby nap with toddler please help

[NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown]

DS 2.4, DD 7 months. DD needs loads of help to sleep, either feeding/walking in sling or pushchair and often that doesn't even work. She fusses for naps and frequently doesn't actually fall asleep for a good hour or more. Fortunately she doesn't scream for actual hours when tired like DS did but it's just as well because she never gets any longer than about 30 minutes due to DS waking her up.

So at the moment I feel forced into going out for a walk twice or 3 times a day to get her to sleep because at home DS won't 'let' her sleep..he just keeps distracting her/screaming her awake on purpose so if I don't go out I end up shouting at him and really really stressed with DD crying through tiredness...the whole situation is really messed up.

He gets lots of one on one time but only ever wants to play with me when I'm trying to get her to sleep. The rest of the time he's happy to play on his own.

The situation is really getting me down because we live on the first floor and it's such a fucking palava getting a toddler ready when he runs off/gets himself back undressed/hides all the stuff I've got ready to go all the while the baby is fussing crying fussing for a nap and I'm getting more and more worked up and everyone ends up crying. This morning I threw some of his books across the room and locked myself in the toilet for a few minutes because she was just crying and every time she's almost asleep he wakes her up :'-(

I know I can't expect him to amuse himself for longer than a few minutes but I have tried and tried to get her to go to sleep on her own and no matter what I do she just gets more upset and therefore even less likely to sleep and I can't bear to hear her cry. I've started managing to get her to fall asleep some evenings with just a cuddle or just laying next to her but she's nowhere near the stage of doing it by herself just yet and I don't even want to try it when DS is napping because it's the only chance she gets to have a proper nap and I just want her to sleep as quickly as possible once he goes down.

This morning I walked around with the pushchair for 3 hours before she finally gave in (so she was up for 5) because I was so scared of another 'fall out' if we went home.

All this is so unfair on DS but I just don't know how to get out of this rut. I'm opposed to anything that leaves them to cry but I don't know how long I can just wait for it to get better much more bearable. As it is I feel on edge all the time (major anxiety/stress ishoos anyway) and I'm so bored of walking the same streets aimlessly whatever the weather. DS couldn't fall asleep on his own until about 16 months and even then I only had him to worry about so I had time to lay with him for as long as it took, that's never going to happen with DD, I can't stay in the house on my own with them without stressing out hugely because nap'time' is such an issue and only happens at home when DH is home entertaining DS.

I can't be consistent because we do different things every day and like I say being at home is soooo stressful..if I could lie with her without DS climbing all over us/keeping her awake it might work but it's not possible..I've tried time and again, even put him in his cot for a bit but he just screams for me, I don't even get to have a poo without him rattling the door handle saying my name 20 times over.

I have no family or friends that can help and DH can only do so much when he's not here

We had this problem a while back and it sort of fixed itself because DD would nap around
9 for 30 mins (on the way to a group and sometimes around 11 on the way back)
Then at 1 when DS did (used to be for 2 hours but he more often takes just an hour now and whenever he's awake she wakes up)
and then more often than not another 30 mins or so at 5 (went out for a walk or fed in bedroom on DH days off) but over the past few weeks she's been so erratic - one day she doesn't want a nap until 11 or 12, other days she starts fussing at 8 (always up between 7&7.30) - I seem to get caught out every day and afternoons are just as bad.

I'm guessing she's perhaps trying to cut down to 2 or 3 naps (at the moment having 3 or 4) but who knows when is best for her to take them (right in the middle of DS group and right after his nap I expect when it literally won't be possible for her to take them) I'm so jealous of people who have babies that drop off when they're tired wherever they happen to be - I just have to keep telling myself my children are going to be really smart and that's why they can't switch off but I have no idea if that's the case!

I have no idea how other people with more than one child cope with getting them to sleep without waking each other up...massive houses or not getting worked up when they cry I guess...I thought it was hard enough with one (cranky, high needs,sleep fighting) baby! I really need some tips!

I should probably note she's not due a development leap for another week or so i think, doesn't seem to be teething or trying to crawl etc and im pretty sure there's no 7 month sleep regression..so im stumped!

So if you've mastered this or even if you're in the same boat please come and share your stories with me! .

If I could just put her down and have her fall asleep I could play with DS and everything would be so

oops rubbish title and last paragraph is supposed to be in the middle..hope it still makes sense and sorry it's so long

Have you tried a snooze shade to block out the light in the pushchair? We have one for DS and it made a big difference. We used it in the car with him as well when he was in his maxi cosi. He's just grown out of that and now I can't black out his carseat anymore and he was awake for a FOUR HOUR CAR JOURNEY on Friday afternoon that was specifically timed to be over nap time, so to a small extent I feel your pain!

Self settling for naps took a good while. Maybe try looking at Gina for timings for this age and then go from there. DS is 13 months and is starting to phase out one of his naps a day, having had two since about 6mo...

I only have one baby and also have massive anxiety issues, so sympathise a lot. Anxiety about sleep nearly sent me over the edge. After three months of ADs I am finally coming back to life.

no teacher I haven't..off to look at that right now (although knowing my kids if there's a way to get it off from the inside she'll find it..have to really watch her with the rain cover or she tries to eat it) - I'm clueless with GF - is there a website with ages and timings of common nap routines? I don't want to try and force her into something she's not happy with but would be interesting to see what's common at her age. The awake times have never rung true with either of them as babies - until about 4 months she could barely handle 1.5 hours without needing a nap, now she regularly goes 3,4 or even more sometimes perfectly happy, other times she's fussing after less than 2..it's like she's a person and not a robot normal I'm sure but very inconvenient!

as for the anxiety yy sleep has been a massive issue for me since DS was born..if she was happy I wouldn't care so much but when she fusses and cries my nerves get shot to pieces - it's survival mechanism gone a bit nuts I think. Dr and psychiatric nurse thought ADs wouldn't help so trying heart coherence tomorrow..hopefully even if I can't solve the issue I can at least learn to stop stressing about it

I love our snooze shade-makes a massive difference. Now what I need to do is fashion an equivalent for a forward facing car seat...!

We based out routine on a combo of Gina and the 2,3,4 routine (number of hours between each nap) he sort of fell into it himself. A perfect day at 8mo would go something like this:
6.30am wake up
8am-breakfast
9am-nap 1 hour
Midday-lunch
1pm-nap 1 hour
4pm-tea
6pm-bedtime

I got him used to napping at those times by walking for miles in the pushchair and then I decided one week enough was enough and put him in his cot at those times with sleeping bag on, white noise, quick bf and into cot. Took a while but he got there.

Good luck x

Hey don't worry this can be sorted. Where does she nap if at home??? And at night how does she settle at bed time??

We don't stay at home for naps much any more because it is the most stressful thing in the world (imagine toddler charging about while baby fusses, working himself into a state because "baby doesn't need a nap!", eventually manage to convince toddler to play quietly for 5 minutes and baby begins to drift off during a feed, toddler starts screaming at the top of his lungs every time baby is almost asleep so she wakes up fully and she starts screaming, Mum gets cross with toddler, toddler refuses to leave the room, baby still screaming, toddler screaming, Mum decides to go out after all because baby now won't sleep and she's about to lose it - cue mad rush where Mum almost has a coronary, baby eventually falls asleep in pushchair.) - but if DH is home she's fed to sleep In a few minutes on the bed (we co-sleep) and generally stay with her as she likes to feed between sleep cycles.

at night she either feeds to sleep on the bed or falls asleep with a cuddle/hand on her tummy with me lying next to her if she's had enough milk and is in the mood. I can usually leave her for a sleep cycle (at nap time she wakes if I leave or is woken by DS) although sometimes she sleeps on my lap in the living room. she seems fairly good at sleeping but DS is a normal toddler bloody loud and always wakes her up

It sounds like the problem is mainly with interruptions from DS rather than your DD not being able to soothe?

If that is the case then I would put on a special DVD or give him a chocolate biscuit on the promise that he is quiet for 10 mins.

It sounds like a nightmare.

I have 2 of similar ages but I have managed to get my DD to creep around going ssshhhh when the baby is trying to sleep. If she shouts she gets a huge telling off.

Do you have a rocking swing for the baby? Mine will fall asleep with rocking motion/noise even when all hell is breaking loose. Or a cot mobile that has songs/music. Might help to get her to drop off.

My youngest is 6 months now and has learned to sleep during most things unless she is really zonked. I think this is a learned thing. K Is your DS ok in a room on his own for a little bit?

betty yes the toddler is the problem but I am totally aware nothing more can be expected for a child of his age...it's just very frustrating. she can fall asleep with me 'just there' in a quiet room and can sleep through noise once asleep, it's getting her to sleep that's impossible (for example she won't fall asleep at a playgroup or someone's house if there's stuff going on she wants to be involved- again possibly quite normal)

A DVD wouldn't work, we've never had the tv on for more than a few minutes and he couldn't sit still for the duration of an advert he is very capable of playing quietly/without participation for a fairly long period of time - just not when I want him to!

we don't have a swing and I'm thinking at her age (and size - she's huge) it's probably a bit late to get one now. I have ordered a snooze shade so I'm hoping that will help even just as a sign that it's naptime, the intention has always been to get her falling asleep after a feed in the evenings and then try and get her to do it at naptime with a view to her eventually not needing me to be there as she falls asleep - I'm only being impatient because 1) I often wonder if I'm missing some great trick everyone else has learnt to get their baby to fall asleep on their own without crying and 2) I'm so fed up with having to go for a long walk every time she needs a nap. but to be honest I think DS is a child that needs walking twice a day like a dog and like me he gets antsy and wants to be going somewhere all the time so we'll probably still be doing it when she can just sleep anywhere

Would she nap in her bedroom better??

Debbie she doesn't have a bedroom as she sleeps in ours at the moment. I try and get her to nap in there when DS has his nap (in his own room) but at the moment she cries and wakes herself up any time I try and leave (how does she know?!) - I haven't tried seeing if she'll fall asleep by herself (without a feed I mean) then because I want her to have as long as possible asleep and she wakes the minute DS does. I've tried getting her to sleep in the bedroom when he's awake and he just keeps disturbing her by talking loudly in purpose, screaming, playing loudly or climbing on the bed with us (I've told him he can come up if he's quiet but that basically means him saying loudly "I'm being quiet!")

if she had learned how to fall asleep without me I'd be happy to leave but she cries if I even turn my back on her let alone when I try and leave the room... I'm guessing I'm going to have to wait this one out until she figures it out on her own

Ok I see, I've just sleep trained my daughter she's 7 months today. I had to get her to take her naps in another room also because my DS would create chaos when I asked him to be quiet because she was trying to nap.
It took me a good 6 wks to teach her to Self sooth maybe abit longer and then she would wake up at every single raised voice sound, door slamming toy dropping. It was bloody infuriating. I learned very early on to not react to DS making noise or alerting him to my mission of getting dd to sleep, the minute he knew what I was doing he was hell bent on sabotaging it. I begged him to keep it quiet then he could play with mummy. Nothing worked.
I'm lucky he's in nursery 4 mornings a week so I concentrated on getting her to self settle at least once in that time. When they are learning to self settle it may only last a few minutes at a time because your right they do sense when they have been left. But that 3mins will build to 4mins to 7/15/26 and so on. It's laying the foundation to good sleeping habits. She'l now do 2-3 hours with DS running wild in another room no problem?
I also spent a few wks perched on the stairs. Keeping him from following me up and near enough to her so I could run back in stick her dummy back in and dash back down before he made top of the stairs to cause carnage. Some days I dragged him back down in pure temper. He's only 2.9 but it fell like he was out to cause me trouble.
It was hard but it paid off. Do you have access to an iPad ?? Does dd sleep in your bed?? Or a crib/cot nxt to your bed??

DS is quite a bit younger and not in nursery until 3 year funding but otherwise it sounds very similar. we know they're not keeping the baby up purposely to undo all our hard work but it sure feels like that sometimes! he's very high needs (I hate labelling him negatively but he ticks every box) and can get very antsy/whingy/needy/annoying and with DD fussing and getting really upset because she's not able to sleep I get very wound up and I admit I have responded too harshly towards him at times when he's woken her up or won't let her sleep. unfortunately we live in a flat and I can't even shut the doors because they make a lot of noise when you open them again so this would wake her instead.

DD used to fall asleep easily and for hours at a time whatever noise was happening until she hit 2.5 months. I was lulled into totally false sense of security because DS never napped easily or well from day one the longest she'll sleep now is when DS sleeps a max of 1.5-2 hours (and even that is becoming rare for both of them) with feeds in between each sleep cycle. I think she wants to go to sleep on her own but keeps getting cross because it doesn't happen quickly. she's currently tired but grabbing at everything in sight, eating her toes and 'talking' to me I just don't know where to start getting her to self settle as she won't take a dummy and cries the minute I make moves to leave and seems to just get more upset rather than sleepy

Would white noise help settle her? Its also great for blocking out background noises. I would maybe give your toddler cheerios or raisins as a snack whilst you settle her (fiddly to eat) and maybe a sticker or something similar if he stays quiet whilst you get DD to sleep.

My DD2 is much younger (3 months) but I do sympatize.

My son wouldn't take a dummy,in the end I used 1 of his many blankets that we had as gifts I had it on me everytime I was with him it almost became like a second skin on me. That became his comforter he still has it now. Worth a shot.

haven't tried white noise in a while but she's been listening to a lullaby that plays on the monitor for a while (may as well make use of it) - she seems to like it so I will give it another go.

DS just shovels things like that in by the fistful whilst on the move he can climb out of his booster seat as well so I can't even strap him down! plus he is loud, if he wants attention everyone in the street knows about it, and he always wants attention when it's DDs naptime.

She is at the start of a development leap now so maybe it started early. she hates being put down at the moment and seems to only be able to sleep at home with a nipple permanently in her mouth. this is unusual for her so I'm seeing it as a passing phase and using it as a chance to lie down for a bit rather than seeing it as a new habit.

on a positive note she seems to like the snooze shade.. I don't think it's going to work as a magic sleep inducer if she's not in the mood but she fell asleep in 10 minutes with it on the pushchair today and stayed asleep for a good half hour of a noisy group.. something she hasn't done since she was tiny
she's still having 3 naps some days and 2 on others with a slightly earlier bedtime (timed around DS's because she always wakes for a feed around 45 minutes after going down and will drift straight back off if I get to her soon enough) - I'm just trying to go with the flow a bit and just give her opportunities to nap if she seems tired rather than stressing about it. it's a big thing for me though

ooh and I'm trying to remember to have a mussie to hand as a comforter... sometimes if I stroke her face with it she seems to relax, other times she just wants to play with it