Why are cruel parenting sites legal?

[Blu]

I have heard of Gary Ezzo before, and today discovered the horrific Michael Pearl. Pearl and his wife actually advocate beating children under the age of one with 'switches' from a tree, and describe horrendous incidences where they have beaten other peopel's children. He instructs parents to beat children relentlessly.

Since incitement to other kinds of violence is banned, and the beahviour this man admits to is presumably legally child abuse, why is it permissable that he openly encourages people to beat children. To beat babies? (he proudly describes beating an 11 month old on his bare leg with a stick).

I really, really want him arrested.

tamum: Amazon's unique selling point is that it DOES 'stock' (or can obtain) every book in print. And lots that are not.

There are books on there that actually SUPPORT having sex with children - surely these are worse?

However, if books such as these are in print, they booksellers will provide them. That's what they are for. They are not in the business of deciding what you can and cannot read. Go into any bookshop on the high street and they will get you a copy of any of these books and be happy to take your money for them. Why is Amazon any different? The amazon website simply shows all books that are in print. That is what Amazon DOES.

monkeytrousers: I don't see why I am making a huge category error. The rape book got a lot of press because people were upset about its publication. I am simply pointing out other books that people here might find hugely offensive.

You might argue why they shouldn't, but I am just trying to find the ones that are likely to worry people here.

There are absolutely SHEDLOADS of books about how to make bombs, create drugs, kill people etc. but I don't think they would bother people so much.

Perhaps we should try to stop Amazon selling the bible, becaiuse it's under the umbrella of christianity that these b*stards hide when challenged. The kind of 'parenting' advocated by the Pearls is extreme, but not unusual:

As already indicated earlier, the Bible, on the contrary, states very clearly that a child is not innocent, but that he comes into the world as an inherently sinful being. “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies,” the psalmist states in Psalm 58:3. Fortunately, a child does not enter the world only with wickedness in his heart, but also with a beautiful and noble possibility. This possibility, however, will remain a mere possibility, and can only be turned into a reality through the hard work of loving parents. Initially the wickedness in the child's heart is also just a mere possibility. This wicked possibility needs no encouragement to become a reality, however. In fact, unless it is forcibly suppressed, even the sweetest-looking baby will soon turn into a veritable little monster.

from \link{http://christian-parenting.learninginfo.org/chap14.htm\this parenting site}

I just googled for their website and have read snippets, but can't any more. I don't want this filth in my head.

sorry people - stupid question here - how do I email amazon? I can't find anything on their website.

Thank you for explaining that to me morningpaper, but I already know. I don't know why we have to keep discussing other unacceptable books though- the thread is about these books in particular.

unfortunately its not just amazon selling this book, how many bookshops are out there. I did a search earlier WH Smith don't stock as far as I can tell but Waterstone do tho its linked thro amazon.

Any bookshop you go into will sell it to you. No one would refuse to sell it.

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat - there is a contact link to Amazon earlier on in this thread

I read this thread earlier but was so affected by what I saw, I really felt unable to write anything!

I was watching the house of tiny terrors earlier and was watching the little boy repeatedly being put back to bed and could not get the picture out of my mind of him being beaten every time he did so, instead of being calmly returned. It takes no time at all - a few nights to sort this out, without resorting to beating your child - why! WHY would any one resort to that!

I really am completely chilled to the bone that people could act like this!

I am almost certain this would be illegal in this country. When I was a child of 10 a boy in my class was repeatedly beaten by his father with a length of electric cable. The father was jailed for 18 months and I remember as clear as day a picture of the poor childs permanently scarred bottom being plastered all over the front page of the local newspaper.

This was in the early 70's when corporal punishment was more 'main stream' so I would imagine it would be even more likely to be illegal by today's standards.

God know's what kind of adults these monsters are raising- damaged for life I would imagine:(

Well done MNHQ - I wish that it would make a difference, but I very much doubt that it will:(

I assume that MNHQ removing the Amazon affiliate logo just means that MNHQ will lose out on their referral fees for people that buy books via the link. No loss to Amazon.

mp, I am not sure that's true - that any bookshop would sell it.
plenty of companies have corporate policies about what they sell.
if I owned a bookshop I wouldn't sell it. just like I wouldn't sell child porn. or racist pamphlets. I would exercise my right not to sell stuff.
like someone else said, a stocking policy is not a god given duty.

MP - My guess is that Amazon wouldn't pay affiliate fees unless they were worth the money - i.e they attract purchasers.

On that basis, I think they will pay some attention, but will I suspect dismiss it as the ramblings of a few mad women

slightl;y odd that people assume that shops will decide not to stock tarty kids clothes but they should offer any morally dubious books

what worries me is that someone from the media will get hold of this, then an article gets done about this controversial book and again it gives them publicity. Other than picketing the airport these people arrive at (and i wouldn't) or complaining to every single book store that stocks the book (haven't got time for that) I will be adding my review to Amazon and hopefully get my point about it across that way

thanks Hula - I have told them I will withdraw my custom if they don;t reconsider. However I wonder if there is more to this. I can't help wondering why the book itself is legal. As I said before freedom of expression is not absolute and in many cases the govt has not just a right to curtail it - but a positive duty.

I'm all for Amazon showing corporate responsiblity when defenceless babies are at risk. No contest.

Will be posting a review - at least that's something we can do.

well done blu and mumset for the swift action. This thread has been a real education and the descriptions will haunt me for a very long time.

I don't think commercial child porn exists. Certainly it is (now) illegal in the UK, hence Amazon wouldn't stock it.

But it does stock plenty of books in favour of sex with children, as mp has helpfully found.

I really dislike the "they know their target market and should stock accordingly". What if their target market was homophobic? Should they not stock any gay-related books?

And books which talk about illegal acts are't illegal - if they were, a lot of fiction would be illegal, for a start.

Frankly, by selling all the books they can get, Amazon make clear they do not endorse every book they sell. They just sell them.

TheWomanWhoThoughtSheWasAHat - yes.

For me, the problem of this book is that it INSTRUCTS and ADVOCATES cruelty and violence against people who - through age and lack of power - have no speech at all. Left to his own devices, this man would have v little cpverage. No average bokshop - waterstones, say, would stock it because it is privately published etc. Minority / small press books are frequently sold in v small monority interest bookshops, which we celebrate, because their monority status is as a result of opression / marginalisation. Remember the censorship issues around Gays the Word publications, for e.g?

But this minority interest is different, in that advocates violence and cruelty against small people who cannot answer back - yet.

Apparantly worldwide sales of this book have topped 400,000, I wonder what proportion through Amazon, and at how much profuit to them? However fiercely i defended fre speech, i couldn't live with myself if I lived on profits of selling such material to people who believed it - or perverts. No, I don't think people who come to it from usual parenting perspectives would suddenly adopt it's methods, but i think many people would have their behaviour endorsed or legitimised by seeing it in print - and it could help to quell the shivers of doubt and hooror that went through the minds of doubters. All the cult things depend on constant affirmation, don't they?

Yes, I do think it's useful to know exactly how far-reaching and extreme the Christian right is, and how far mainstream America apparantly considers it acceptable to leave it be.

I still think it's disgusting and without moral grounding to sell it. It's all on his website, anyway, so no-one needs to get rich on peddling it. Let Pearl do it at his own expense.

Saying 'don't blame Amazon, they just sell the book' misses the point though. It's like saying 'guns don't kill people, people do'.

This is incitement to violence. That's a crime. Amazon are morally implicated in any crimes committed by people who have bought this book through them.

even if a protest is weak and powerless that isn't a reason not to protest..or discuss ways of doing so

how about we all find out about the american equivalent of the nspcc and e-mail them too? i've been doing some hunting and the nearest i can get is the american humane society.and if they come to britain-we'll put the word out and we get as many people as possible to boycott the venue.

i think the problem is that in the US it is acceptable

Amen to that Blu and edam.