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Original poster

Parental rights . . . could be considered morbid . . .

26 replies

libb · 23/01/2004 22:03

Please can someone settle an argument . . .

DP and I are expecting our first child in May. I am currently going through a divorce and that should all be settled by that time. Obviously I don't intend to leap into another marriage for a while and yet I can't find any guidelines as to what DP's rights are, please could someone advise us as to what his rights are if I die? I know as unmarried parents his rights are affected (unless we get a court order?) but what about in terms of death? Sorry to be morbid but I guess I am just trying to cover all bases - DP thinks I am over-reacting and feels that his rights would be
different again due to the circumstances! (also if anyone has extra advice regarding my rights in that scenario then that would be great!)

Any advice gratefully received . . .

Many thanks, Libb xx

OP posts:
KatieMac · 23/01/2004 22:13

I don't know the answer but I think you are being very brave/sensible to discuss it now - it may help if you each write a will naming the other as the person responsible for the child ?
It's always better to discuss these things when they are abstract

Lots of luck sorting it out (after reading the biochemisrty thread I KNOW Mumsnet will sort it for you )

dinosaur · 23/01/2004 22:19

Libb,

I don't know the exact answer to your question, but basically you should go to a solicitor and get wills drawn up which expressly appoint a guardian for your child.

The situatioin for married parents is that if they both die without having appointed a guardian, then there is a presumption that their next of kin should be guardian - but this is not very satisfactory if e.g. both spouses' mothers are still alive and each thinks she should be the guardian - then it would have to be sorted out by a court.

So basically see a solicitor, get your wills drawn up, decide who you want to appoint as guardian (and who should be substitute guardian in the event that your first choice predeceases/can't do it/whatever). This is good advice for all parents, married or unmarried.

We've just signed our wills yesterday, so it's all been on my mind recently.

Best of luck,

Dino

Lisa78 · 23/01/2004 22:21

I think he has to complete some paperwork establishing parental rights and responsibilities, if you are not married, and that would give him the legal right as your childs next of kin

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Families Family law General parenting
Fennel · 23/01/2004 22:31

Libb

We have been through this (though only by choice we don't want to get married). Unmarried fathers have virtually no rights unless they do the following which is actually not very hard if you know what to do (but noone tells you):

The important things are for DP (the father) to have his name on the birth certificate as the father, and to get a parental responsibility agreement when the baby is born. To do this, you need a FULL birth certificate (not the shorter version they offer for free but you have to pay at the registry office when registering the birth, something like £5. Then you both take this full birth certificate, plus ID for you both, to the county courts (in our city this is next to the registry office). There you fill in an application form, there and then, it takes a few minutes, and an officer there has to witness you signing it. That's it, basically. Then if you die or argue or whatever he still has the same rights as a married father.

It's not hard and it could make a huge difference so I would really recommend it.

popsycal · 23/01/2004 22:33

Fennel - not many people know that at all.
We married just before our son's first birthday and knew that there wassoemthing we could do when unmarried to get parental rights for dh (it used to reallu bug him) but didn't know how to go about it aor what it was we had to do.

I think it needs to be made a lot clearer to couples with children who are not married.

popsycal · 23/01/2004 22:35

Does anyone know if the father has paretnal rights when married if he wasnt married to me at the time f the birth? I vaguely remember someone telling me that if married after the birth,he didnt have rights still....or did I imagine that and put it to the back of my mind?

Fennel · 23/01/2004 22:39

Popsycal - totally agree it's not well advertised. It took us quite a while to work it out for ourselves but the procedure is so simple if you know it. I don't know why they don't have a simple leaflet or something.

I think if you marry the man who's registered as the father on the birth certificate he has the rights as if you were married all along. not sure about that though.

Original poster
libb · 23/01/2004 22:43

Blimey! thanks for the quick replies!

We will get the will/etc sorted out anyway but he is adamant that he would have different rights in the case of death - but I said it was the same for whatever reason we were not together.

It doesn't help that we haven't been together long and I feel so insecure right now! I think my hormones are playing up. Great.

I knew you guys would help sort this out! I really appreciate it.

OP posts:
Fennel · 23/01/2004 22:53

There's some useful websites and advice on another thread today "where do we stand to get custody" under Other subjects. Someone there mentions a website where you can download the agreement form and send it off.

popsycal · 23/01/2004 22:55

Fennel - we were told that when we orignially registered ds that if and when we got married we needded to re-register him (which i did). Hardly anyone knows abtou this though and 'apparently' it is a legal requirement.

I did ask why and the reply was to 'legitimise the birth'...yes i know.....my sentiments too!!!

Original poster
libb · 23/01/2004 23:01

Popsycal, that is really daft and I am starting to feel so glad I posted this thread - it is goes to show that sites like these do the most justice. This is my first pregnancy and had no idea of the little things that need clarifying!

OP posts:
Fennel · 23/01/2004 23:08

It's daft you have to do anything other than put the father's name on the birth certificate. If the mother permits that, she's agreeing he's the father. that should be enough.

Fennel · 23/01/2004 23:09

as for "legitimising the birth"... what century is this?

Linnet · 23/01/2004 23:25

My dh and I married when our dd was 4. Afterwards we had to re-register her birth so that she could take his surname, she'd had my surname from birth, long story don't ask.

Check with a solicitor or the CAB Libb just to be on the safe side. When our dd was born my dh's name was on the birth certificate but there were times when I did worry about what would happen to her should something happen to me since he wasn't a legal guardian as we weren't married.

WideWebWitch · 23/01/2004 23:41

Libb, he will have parental responsibility IF he goes with you to register the birth. This is a change that only came into effect from Dec 2003. I know this because our dd was born in Nov 03 and dp does have PR because he came with me to register the birth. It applies to births registered after 1 Dec 03, not babies born before Dec 03, i.e. it's the registration date, not the birth date. Dp and I are not married but should we marry we will have to re-register dd as 'a child of the marriage' (though she won't have been, having been conceived and born before marriage but there you go!) I don't know about PR and rights after death though, sorry. HTH.

HiddenSpirit · 24/01/2004 01:34

www I didn't know that the legislation on that had changed (i.e. if registered after Dec 2003, father would have parental responsibility). Have you got any more info on this, or a link to a website or anything?

Thankfully my xp does not have parental responsibility with either of my 2 sons (DS2 is basically my DP's son as he has been with me since I found out I was preggers) which in my case is a blessing, as xp used to beat me (and on a few occassions DS1) up. He is not even named on DS2's birth cert, but still has to pay maintenance for him.

Blackduck · 24/01/2004 07:58

WWW is right - the law has changed.....
here you go...www.statistics.gov.uk/registration/registering_birth.asp#parental

However, doesn't help me as my ds was registered in July so off to the County Courts for me!

aloha · 24/01/2004 09:46

If your dp has PR - ie is on the birth cert, then he will have legal rights over his son if you die (which you won't!) so all will be OK.

Luckymum · 24/01/2004 16:45

If dad is on the certificate of a baby registered before 1/12/03 where the parents are unmarried he does not automatically have parental responsibility. www is right and the law has changed but only for babies registered after this date.

The term 'legitimising the birth' goes back to when the original registration laws were made (about 1837 I think) so not really appropriate today . You are supposed to re-register after marriage but not many people know this. You can re-register to put dad on the birth entry if he couldn't be with you when you first registered (if you are unmarried).

I'm not completely sure but I don't think that an unmarried father has automatic parental rights even after the death of mum. He is next of kin but its not the same thing.

littlerach · 24/01/2004 17:43

Agree, lucymum. DH and I were unmarried so did the PR form, also needed for DPs to apply for passports for DDs. Then we married when she was 2 and changed birth certificate etc to re-register her. If there is no PR then he has no legal rights, even if you die - harsh, but true.

popsycal · 24/01/2004 19:06

It is crazy isn't it.
DH (the dp) is named on ds's birth certificate, ds had his surname and we still had to re-register when we married
What a crazy world we live in!!

popsycal · 24/01/2004 19:07

Oh yes - and before we were married, we all applied for passports (to go on honeymoon!!!) and dh went to the passport office to buy them but they wouldn't let dh get ds's passport as ihadn't written a letter giving him permission.
Though they would let him get mine!
Bizarre!

dot1 · 27/01/2004 11:03

blimey - I'm glad I read this thread, but I'm coming at it from a completely different angle... I'm expecting in March and as with ds we want our donor to be on the birth certificate -but none of us want/need him to have PR - he doesn't with ds as that was 2 years ago, but automatically would with this one. Will have to think about this. Hopefully it's just a technicality for us, but it's weird to think that our donor would have PR...

aloha · 27/01/2004 11:14

But Libb's baby isn't due until May, so her dp will have PR automatically.
Dot1, PR is pretty much a technicality TBH, unless you were to die and if your partner didn't have PR they wouldn't necessariy have any claim on your child. But they probably would in practise. Nice to feel covered though. The rest of the stuff isn't essential. Basically, you can devolve your PR to anyone so your partner can do stuff like take the kids to the drs and sign consent forms perfectly legally if you want her to do it. And vice versa, of course. PR does not give automatic rights to contact the child etc.

Fennel · 27/01/2004 12:41

It's a technicality that suddenly really matters if you die or if you separate acrimoniously (and being realistic, too many people do) or if the donor father changes his ideas about how involved he wants to be.

Dot did you get PR for your DS? My friend who had a child by anonymous donor and her partner (lebian relationship) had to go to court to get PR for the woman partner. It was 5 years ago but was more complicated than just signing a form.

We will have to check out the recent changes, there must be a website somewhere. it would be nice if the birth certificate is all you need. one less reason to get married....