DS has excessively rude friend.... is this normal

[HankeringForSun]

Ds is 5. He has a 5.5 year old girlfriend and they share an intense friendship. Over the last couple of months his friend has gone from spirited to unmanageable.
She is excessively attention seeking, incredibly rude, very mean to my DS's younger sibling etc etc. She literally never ever says anything polite or pleasant, calls me a 'dick' and I have to raise my voice or use my physical restraint all the time. Last time I called her mum and told her I was bringing her home. They have had several sleepovers together at her and at ours. It wasn't until she come to ours for a sleepover that I realised why my DS has had a behaviour problem over the last few weeks.
Is this normal at 5 years old?
It's so so extreme and I'm so shocked and I really don't want my son around her. Other parents are tearing their hair out at her and a parent was forced to emergency stop the car this morning during the school run because she refused to stop kicking people in the face. Her mother is a highly intelligent/educated, articulate lovely lady but they have a very challenging home situation. She's clearly not aware and I need to bring it up with her. But regardless I just feel like I want to end their friendship. But how?
Would you simply nip it in the bud and put an end to the friendship, try to work on it?
But my main questions is.... how can this be, at age 5? so extreme... anyone else with similar experiences?
Thanks, bit of a rush... DD is all over me.

x

If the mum is 'clearly not aware', what did you say to her the time you took her daughter home early? How did she respond?

Got to say, I am a little taken aback at the notion of a 5 yo having a 'girlfriend'. Also lots of sleepovers - a rare thing at that age amoung folks I know. The whole situation seems a bit extreme.

If she has a challenginf home life then possibly this is contributing to her behaviour. I would be careful using physical restraint. If you cant deal with her then maybe you should explain to her mum as a friend.

What's the 'challenging home situation'.?

Sorry, that may not have been v helpful but it all sounds very full on. Not sure you can keep them apart at school, but I would not have any child playing regularly or sleeping at my house if they called me a dick, never mind all the other stuff. I think you need to have a (difficult, but...) conversation with her mother / parents and convey that.

There seems to be a huge discrepancy between a mum being lovely, intelligent, articulate,educated and her child being rude, impolite and calling you a dick. Children usually mirror behaviour from those around her, so where is she getting this from?
Your priority is your son, I would be stopping the friendship ASAP.

Assume it's a "girl friend" rather than "girlfriend"?? I would be wondering what was going on at home or whether there was some kind of undiagnosed SN or behavioural problem. Children aren't just excessively rude without there being a reason IMO. But if she's that unmanageable I would not feel guilty about not having her over.

Agree with apple

Sounds like very disturbed behaviour and difficult for you to deal with unless her mum has some sort of strategy in place which you can agree.
I would be very uncomfortable about any form of physical restraint and think you need to discuss this with her mum as a matter of urgency.

I think its hard to choose childrens friends but its easy to actively promote other friendships.

I'm reasonably forward so I would chat to the mum and say i found her behaviour for my home unexceptable and how would she like it handled i.e. stop visits for a while, return her DD immediately if her behaviour is unexceptable or use time out etc

Are there any other children your DS has expressed an interest in being friends with that you could invite over, take out on a special day out etc? Dllute the intensity of this friendship a bit and give you son options.

Why are 5 year old's having sleepovers? Was she in the car that performed the emergency stop? Sounds like she's getting farmed out to and sundry; maybe it's (fairly extreme) attention seeking?

Why are you letting your 5 year old sleep over in a challenging home environment.
It needs to stop. I would be worried sick !

crikey shall we all stop having a pop at OP.....
this is definitely not normal behaviour for a 5 yr old, it is very extreme and disturbing. i find it hard to believe that the girl's mum doesn't on some level acknowledge her daughter has a problem. maybe speak to a teacher at their school and have her bring up the subject with the girl's mum. saves an uncomfortable conversation for you and it might get the ball rolling with getting things sorted x

It sounds to me like extreme attention seeking behaviour. If she doesn't respond to your firm, clear requests etc, then I think I would say to mum that you are finding her too hard at the moment as she won't listen, and she is using language that you don't want ds to copy.

I think mum needs to know, and I also think you need to feel the freedom to ditch this friendship.

I have one persevered with a friendship like this, I did it for mum as she needed support and I worked with her to change her parenting skills.

I would be suspicious that some kind of abuse is taking place within the family, judging by the behaviours you describe. Perhaps SN possibilities need to be assessed by the relevant body. Sleepovers at this age are a bit much IMO, and just because the mother is nice and educated doesn't excuse the fact that the child is learning this behaviour from somewhere, possibly herself. Remove your ds from this company and move on. The child has problems both social and behavioural that need dealing with, and the mother and father need to take full responsibility for that.

When my DS's friends would come over at that age, some would be very cheeky testing the boundaries in a different environment. Once I'd laid out the ground rules the behaviour did improve. As others have said, I would not feel comfortable physically restraining someone else's child - and if their behaviour was that bad, I'd be straight on the blower for the lovely, intelligent mum to collect their off-spring...

Maybe wait a year or two to see if this child's behaviour improves before having them over to yours or vice versa. Kids can go through a particularly bad phase [she says hopefully]

Can't the mum come too for a play date? This little girl sounds very unhappy :(

Thanks for all the responses...
In my original post I hadn't had time with DD needing my attention, to give the background on the home situation. Now that I've had a little while to reflect on it and do abit of child psychology reading it makes quite a lot of sense that she is dramatically attention seeking.
Her twin sister is extremely special needs. Her mum is a single mum and there is no man on the scene at all. It's just the three of them full time (and a lot of helpers) . Sister has very little/few motor skills/cognitive ability (is unable to vocalise, walk, sit, feed self etc) and obviously the house is full of machinery/hoists etc etc and it's not a restful home. Her mother is AMAZING, stays calm and loving and makes as much time as she can for her able needs daughter to be with her one on one, but obviously the situation is extremely challenging for both of them :( It is not known from one day to the next, if she will survive days, weeks, months or many years... much unpredictability and th resulting need for improvisation with schedules etc.

DS's friend's presence in my his life has been (initially) very positive. He was extremely shy and withdrawn when he started at school and we had a huge struggle trying to get him to integrate in any level. Their friendship has brought him a lot of confidence and he is very well integrated at school.

But now that I see this extreme behavioural issue develop and it's effect on my son, I feel quite dismayed, for everyone involved.

She has been having sleep overs at our house because her mum finds herself at A and E with her special needs daughter being admitted for the night. What to do?

When I dropped her back off at home (mum can't come and get her at the drop of a hat) there were several helpers in the house and it didnt' feel like the right time so left it. The next call came, in the middle of a made hectic moment outside and I briefly explained that I wanted a quiet day with my own kids. I felt very respected and well understood. Later the same day an emergency call from the mother at A and E asking if she could stay the night. But of course..... what else to do? She does have quite a support network of trusted/trained individuals but I guess she's not always able to reach others and perhaps she wants to rotate requests for support so she doesn't drain any one channel.

I feel like just depositing the child back with her mother and saying the friendship is off would be a very difficult way to deal with the situation and not necessarily one that would be most helpful, for anyone concerned. Perhaps we can move beyond, without too much difficulty. If my approach changes from finger wagging and shouting and we're somehow able to calm the whole situation down and have some good talking sessions and fun.....?

Obviously I need to talk to her mum (when she's not calling from A and E or with a house full of physios etc etc) and I don't have a problem doing that at all. I expect a good healthy conversation. So that's the next step.

From what I've been reading, I could see if the situation could change with some positive affirmations of good behaviour etc, lots and lots of love and approval and cheer, which I must say she does get at home but under the circumstances and with a somewhat passionate/dynamic personality (and I suspect a higher than average IQ) isn't enough.

I started out with questions and this has become quite a processing channel...

I can see that I'm not ready to simply cut her off and wash my hands of the situation but I know that I don't want DS sleeping over at hers anymore. I would concede to sleepovers at ours however..... if I felt we were 'getting somewhere'. If not and nothing changes then it's time to give it a rest I guess.

Does this make sense?

Thanks!!!

Oh and by the way the physical restraint thing was in response to getting wildly out of control with a tickling game gone over the top. Sort of hysteria that happened super fast. And it involved moving her away from the situation into more space of her own.

actually, that sort of physical hysteria out of control thing happens a lot. Wild dynamic energy going crazy sort of thing.

It sounds as if you are a really good friend, OP, and not one to jettison a friendship (either your own or DSes) when it gets tough...

BUT - if/when you have the little girl over again, you need to sit them both down and lay out ground rules (both, otherwise she might feel 'victimised' or picked on. Ds can just listen, and she could work out how to behave with other people. The problem arises when she doesn't adhere to the ground rules. Do you take her home immediately? Sit her on naughty step? Withdraw toys? You have to work out with her mum what you can and can't do(I used to help out in infants and developed a loud snappy voice (not shouting !) and a hard stare that meant business. )

Wow poor family. Really difficult situation for all of you. It seems like the little girl's home life is very unpredictable; if she's coming to you for emergency sleepovers she may be feeling upset confused and worried, so it's not surprising that her behavior is rude and attention-seeking.

If you want to keep trying (your help surely makes a big difference to her family, but of course it's your right to put your own kids' safety and security first), then I think you need to sit down with her mum at a calm time. Try to research more avenues of support for her mum. Set clear boundaries for behavior in your house, but also find ways that this girl can get more support and attention.