Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Same sex parents...advice needed

65 replies

kokeshi · 15/04/2006 16:35

Hi there, I joined a while ago and have been a frequent lurker. I've been amazed at the genuine and caring support and advice given and received between members, so here goes.

2 years ago, in my late twenties, I finally admitted and accepted to myself that I was attracted to women. I was married but unfortunately around this time my husband(who was living in another country)died.

I met an amazing woman and we have been in a relationship since then and her strength has helped me through those rough times. We are now talking about starting a family and therein lies the problem. She is openly gay and has been for years. I now live quite near my parents with my partner but they (I don't think) know the nature of our relationship. They are from a traditional catholic background (I have been brought up in this religion too) and I'm not sure how they would take it.

I guess my upbringing must have a bearing on the way I feel about bringing a child into a same sex family. Is this right? Is it selfish of me and my partner? Are there any other people out there who have experience of this?

I'd really appreciate any thoughts on it. As I'm not 'out' I don't really have anyone close to talk with except my partner, I guess I feel a little isolated in my dilemma! Thanks.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
hester · 15/04/2006 22:57

Am off to breastfeed now, but will email you tomorrow Smile

lact8 · 15/04/2006 23:26

Kokeshi, I'm coming at it from another angle too, my mum's gay. However she was married to my Dad and had me and my brother before her relationship with him ended so I've not faced the not knowing who my biological father is issue.

At times, particularly during my teens it was hard for me to deal with my mum's sexuality but then I hadn't been brought up with it since birth. (and had difficulty dealing with everything about both of my parents too in typical teenage fashion Grin )

My younger brother however has dealt with it much better than I did.

I agree with everyone who says that you need to sort out your feelings about being open to everyone about being gay. I know that there were times when it was difficult for my mum to do this but at the end of it all you really find out who your friends are.

As a result of the divorce both my brother and I have lost contact with our dad (dad's choice)and from recent conversations with my brother(now mid twenties) he does feel that he has missed out from having a male role model in his life. So if you do choose an anonymous donor then make sure your brother or another siginifcant male is willing to play a part in your child's life.

I love my mum so much and I'm really proud of how brave she was to make the changes she did. My DS1 is 9 and just accepts that we're going to see Nan and her partner.

Good luck with everything

kokeshi · 16/04/2006 00:09

Thanks Lact8, interesting to hear an adult experience of a having a gay parent. Again, I'm thinking long-term for the child, and yes I'll have to be comfortable with myself before I would think about ttc seriously.

What's having a bearing at the moment is definitely where we live. My partner and I lived in the city for a while but we're back to the town I was brought up in. She looks more 'gay' than I do (actually, not butch at all, just short hair) and she's had some unimaginative comments (lezzie, dyke)whilst out Sad.

It's weird...I feel really self-concious here. Not just because of my relationship, I feel like I've taken a step backwards. Sort of re-visiting where I was emotionally when I left to go to university when I was 18.

I know I have to change, not just my geography but I do feel like I can't breathe here. Does that make an sense to anyone? I also live on the same street as my old catholic primary school and I pass my parish church every day! Strangely, I still have an affinity with the spiritual element of my faith but obviously my lifestyle conflicts with their befiefs. I wonder if there are any thoughts on this too?

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Hattie05 · 16/04/2006 00:11

Hi there, havn't read all of this thread, but wanted to add my feelings.

Firstly you are not selfish in wanting a family with your partner.

Two most important things that come to my mind from reading this are ensure that you are stable in yourself before considering having a child - e.g. coming out to family and friends, make sure you come to terms with things yourself without outside influences, like - stop thinking your selfish for wanting this. Gain the respect for yourself that you deserve and that your future child will deserve.

Second point about "biological sperm donor". Honesty honesty honesty! Ensure that you bring a child into this world who knows exactly where they have come from, that feels they can ask you any questions they wish and trust you to always answer honestly. Make the story of how your child was born one that s/he hears from a baby, so that nothing ever comes as a big shock to him or her.

Lastly - good luck i wish you well, you're about to face some exciting and some scary challenges, but its all leading you in the right direction for a happy future, stay strong and look forwards.

kokeshi · 16/04/2006 00:19

Thank you for your kind words Hattie05. It's really helped me sharing my feelings and getting the supportive responses Smile

OP posts:
Hattie05 · 16/04/2006 00:23

Feeling claustrophobic where you live is understandable. i didn't realise i did feel like that until dp and i moved to a new area! I love it now, it really feels like a fresh start.

Is it a possibility for you to move?

I'm not sure about catholic churches, but i know my local c of e are trying to turn things around and open their doors to the 'wider community' including gay and lesbian people.

lact8 · 16/04/2006 00:28

Sad sorry to hear about negative comments

kokeshi · 16/04/2006 00:36

Yes Hattie05, it's something dp and I have talked about. We'd probably move back to the city, there's quite a thriving gay and lesbian community there although I've never been drawn to the 'scene'. My dp is great though, she's taught me so much. I think she was more surprised that anyone would bother! Small town, small minds Wink.

OP posts:
kokeshi · 16/04/2006 03:49

Hi again Hester...my lycos email is playing up. Here's my other one: jenniemack at care2 dot com

cheers

OP posts:
lilstarry1 · 16/04/2006 08:42

I'm happy to see you are receiving so much support and the positive effect it is having..

I'm not a religious person, but I am interested in religion and have studied it a fair amount, so although I can't actually know what it's like to have two conflicting lifestyles, I can sympathise and let you know you aren't alone. Did you happen to see the channel 4 doc on Gay Muslims? Many of them presented the logical argument that they could in fact be devout to their religion whilst also being gay (completely forbidden according to the Qu'ran..). What you have to try and remember is not to subscribe to the 'Catholic guilt'. If you believe in God surely you recognise they are a compassionate loving being.. Didn't Jesus talk about accepting all people? Modern religion is desperately trying to undo the naivety and homophobic attitudes that have previously permeated it.. don't forget religion is always influenced by society and vice versa, it is now much more acceptable to be gay and religion is trying to accommodate this. You will inevitably encounter more closed minded people who hide behind religion, Imho these people are cowards, but that's a rather different debate!

When you have truly accepted humans are contradictory, that you are both religious and gay and that neither really impact on the other, then living near your old parish church shouldn't matter! I can understand wanting to get away, but there will always be someone there to make you feel 'wrong', as many have said if you are firm in your identity this won't be a problem, in fact I imagine you will feel pity towards those so small minded as not to realise what a wonderful person you are.

If you can surmount it all perhaps you'd consider educating others in a similar position? I mean, look how much you've benefited from other peoples experience/advice.. just think how many other people there are feeling similarly..

Love xx

Juno · 16/04/2006 10:13

Hi everyone

Thanks, Rhubarb, for CATing me, because I rarely get chance to catch up on mumsnet these days - having to have too many sword fights with ds1! (Of the many issues we went through endlessly before taking a big breath and jumping into the having children ocean, imagining a weapon-obsessed little boy who constantly asks for people to "be rough" with him wasn't one of them!!)

I would back up all those who said it's important for you to be open and honest in the first instance, before bringing children into the mix. I read an excellent book called, I think, Lesbian and Gay Parenting, by an American psychoanalyst or something. I shall look it up and come back on that. But it pointed out that any negative feelings you still have about yourself/your relationship/your sexuality would be picked up on, at some level, by your children, so it's best to feel as comfortable as possible with things, so we don't load our misgivings onto our kids. I know that's easier said than done.

Just to give you a quick idea of our experience, we were together a good eight years before dot's hormones started raging and she insisted she HAD to have children and, moreoever, it HAD to be with me. I didn't want to do it because I was terrified of 'society's' reaction, and thought any children brought into the world by us would have a hard time, especially since I'd had a really hard time with my mum, who'd had enormous difficulty accepting her much loved daughter was gay. To an extent she still does have that difficulty, but she manages to be a fantastic grandma, mum and mum-ex-law also, so I can live with that.

Anyway, we had a bit of counselling which didn't really do me too much good. I think I was more influenced by some work colleagues who were having kids at that point, and by a former teacher who couldn't understand why I didn't just go ahead, saying he couldn't see what the problem was (bless him!) We sort of compromised for a while on fostering, and went through a rigorous approval process by Harrow, the borough we lived in at the time. Despite being approved, we didn't manage to get a placement within a reasonable period, and by then I'd spent so long living with the thought of children, letting my mind venture into unknown territory, that I thought: sod it. Let's go for it. At the same time I took the decision to move back to the city where we'd both grown up. We were agreed that we wanted to use a known donor, so drew up a shortlist of suitable friends, asked the one at the top of the list and received an immediate assent.

After a short course with Lisa Saffron, who runs a gay parenting website, we decided to try conceiving in alternate months, but then I got lucky on my second try. All our friends were supportive and pleased for us and my mum, although she didn't talk to me for the first few weeks of the pregnancy, quickly came on board. A couple of years later dot conceived ds2 (by the same dad) and we moved to Manchester.

Their dad now lives down the road and is happy to have regular contact with none of the downside, like the lack of sleep. So far in the process I've been pleasantly surprised by the lack of flak we've had. But I suspect that those who don't approve, rather than offering abuse, just make themselves scarce, which is fine. Now that the school years are in sight, I guess I feel slightly uneasy about what might lie in store for them, but I believe all we can do is instil as much knowledge, self-confidence and happiness in them as possible so that they can cope with any unpleasantness they meet.

I hope I don't come across as though we've got it all sussed, because I don't feel like that at all. When I talk about dealing with any negative feelings you have, I don't actually mean that I've dealt with all of my own. Although I am utterly secure with my sexuality - I say I have the word 'lesbian' running through me like a stick of rock! - I can't hand on heart say that I'm sure our boys will never be unhappy at their family make-up, or that I'm totally relaxed about how they'll deal with any negativity at school, because I'm far from that. But you also learn and grow as you're doing it, and I do feel that we're doing just as good a job as the average straight couple.

Incidentally, I think it's right that children need role models of both sexes, so it's worth thinking about who they could be. I used to be quite hung up on this, but now that we're fairly near their dad and they see their uncles quite regularly, as well as one of their grandads and the dad of friends of ours, I think that's reasonably well covered!

Dottydot · 16/04/2006 10:27

Hi Kokeshi
Can't believe Juno (my partner!) got to the computer first! She's not a regular poster but I tend to lurk and post on Mumsnet most days, so am around a fair bit.

I'd definitely agree with really needing to be happy and honest with your relationship before you do the children thing - I think it would be the only way it could work, to be honest. It's difficult - and as Juno said we went through some tricky times with her Mum - she went through a period of not speaking to us through both pregnancies, but fortunately we've all come through that and she's a fab grandma - to both ds's.

But other than that, people in general have been fantastic - the nursery and pre-school where the boys go are great - we always get a Mothers Day card which says "to my Mummies" and they always ask in advance do we want the boys to make Fathers Day cards etc. - they're very thoughtful.

I think it helps that we're really up front about our family - if we don't hide anything then it cuts down the chances to hurt us I suppose.

I'm really really glad that we chose someone we know to be the donor - we found our perfect match in that we had a straight male friend who is lovely but just not into having his own family or many ties at all. We live down the road from him and see him every month or so - which is just enough for him! ds1 in particular adores him and they're building up a really lovely relationship - and I'm sure the same thing will happen with ds2 as he gets older. It felt important to both dp and I that the boys should know who their Dad is - but my best friend who's also with a woman has had her children via a sperm bank and feels just as strongly that that was the right way for her!

In all, I'd say go for it! Try not to be scared but try to come out to everyone you know first - get all that out of the way and then think about what kind of donor you'd want.

Anyway, I'll keep checking on this thread and feel free to ask any questions about any of it!

Lastly, Mumsnet is a fantastic place - I've been posting for about 5 years now and have had the most wonderful support about all sorts of conceiving and parenting issues and it's great that on here I'm a parent first and foremost - the gay thing doesn't usually come up unless there's a ready made thread like this one! I've made a lot of virtual friends so I'd say keep posting and you'll get lots of points of view, help, advice etc.

kokeshi · 16/04/2006 11:57

Dot and Juno..thanks so much both of you for taking the time out to write to honestly about your own lives. I really feel a lot more assured about going ahead with it, and everyone's encouragement to come out to my family is definitely had an effect...which my partner will be glad to know. So thank you all!

We probably wouldn't start for another couple of years yet, I'll still be in my early 30s and that gives us time to prepare financially for a child. The situation you both have with the father's involvement seems to me ideal. I think my dp's concern would be that the biological dad would eclipse her role as the 'other' Mummy. She does't want to have children of her own (too sore!) and initially I felt about insecure about that, ie, what if she decides after the fact that she doesn't want kids at all? It would be easy for her to walk away. Actually, I think that's just plain insecurity rather than a likelihood Smile

I also imagine my mother's reaction to be a bit like Juno's. I do have a good relationship with her now and we are quite close, but it wasn't always like that! I have to say that I caused a fair bit of anguish for her a few years ago...which I now believe was the result of trying to suppress my feelings and 'be straight' for so long. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to hurt her badly again.

It's fantastic that you have had positive experiences with your nursery, not just tolerating it but actively celebrating! I know my feelings about myself and my sexuality are deeply rooted in my upbringing (yeah, I still subscribe to the catholic guilt!) and I'll have to do more work on myself beforehand. I've looked into my past a lot already, and my dp is quite sorted about everything, really!

I guess I've been thinking long term as well, like when they go to school. We all know how cruel children can be and I suppose my feelings of selfishness would arise if I thought their life had been made difficult by my choices.

I'm so grateful for the amazing support I've received, I feel so much lighter about it all now. It's amazing how problems seem rather insurmountable when you have no-one to share with! I definitely know where to come with any questions I have...thanks again! I'm smiling this morning!

OP posts:
Dottydot · 16/04/2006 13:10

Aww - I'm pleased you're feeling good Kokeshi! We took about 2 years to plan things once we'd made the decision to have our own kids - met up with our donor a few times and even wrote an agreement, which we knew wasn't legally binding (he's a barrister!) but helped to make 100% sure that we were all clear about what we wanted at that time - recognising that of course feelings and circumstances can change.

I completely empathise with your partners worries about being eclipsed. My dp was the first to get pregnant - we took it in turns to get pregnant the first time - and I was overwhelmed with worries about this - despite all the planning! When ds1 came along I couldn't believe that our donor wouldn't want to scoop him up and be a 'proper' Dad, leaving me in the background!! Of course that didn't happen, and so it was just the passing of time that made me realise it was going to be OK and I'm an equal parent to ds1.

When I got pregnant with ds2 I think it was easier for Juno as we'd seen how it was going to work, which was good. She didn't bond with ds2 as quickly as with ds1 - didn't help that he was a screamy colicky baby - so there were worries there - but you should see them now!!

We talk to both ds's all the time about how they've come to be here - they both know which Mummies they came from, and who their Daddy is and for the moment all's well!

I worry aswell about school - ds1 starts primary school in September..! I think our approach will be to talk to his class teacher (and maybe even headteacher) right at the beginning to explain our family situation, and keep involved in the school - I'd love to be a governer for instance. The more involved we are and positive we are, hopefully the more positive and supportive the school system as a whole will be. We'll never be able to escape the fact that we've brought them into a world which won't always tolerate them, but I think it's really fascinating that ds1's stories and make believe always involve a Mummy and a Daddy - never 2 Mummies - which I think is really good - he's learning already to adapt himself to the usual circumstances of a family, while at the same time being happy in his own!

Anyway, good luck with your plans and thoughts with it all - and keep posting!

kokeshi · 16/04/2006 14:14

Hey Dot! Best of luck to you all with your ds1 starting school, and I think being involved is an excellent way to effect change in people's attitudes.

My dp came out 20 years ago and has said that since then, general attitudes to gay and lesbian people are a lot more accepting nowadays. She said that something like the L word would have been unthinkable at that time! Amazing really.

Probably a strange question to ask, but were you more concerned that both of you had sons? I'm not averse to boys in any way (can't be, I married one! Wink)but I guess that's where the male role model becomes more of an issue practically? Like how their bodies work etc?

I'm amazed also at how adaptive children are too. My friend had a son really young, whose father upped and left right away. Despite what may he may have suffered from psycholgically through lack of conventional family, 10 years on, he's the most well-rounded lovely child you could imagine.

I can also see how your two sons being genetically half-brothers also makes the unit more cohesive for them too. I think, if this were at all possible, I'd really like to go for that too. Again, I appreciate that it took along time to organise and I'm fully prepared for that.

The thought of having an anonymous donor just seems a little strange to me, but then again, my own family circumstances do affect me and I know there are many happy people out there who don't know, or have contact with, a natural parent (like my friend's son above).

Did you feel it was important for both of you to have a child? I suppose I was a little surprised by my parter's admission that she has no desire to give birth to her own. Maybe because she is that bit older too?

OP posts:
Dottydot · 16/04/2006 15:56

Hi! Quick posting because I'm supposed to be making tea..!

No, didn't have any strong feelings about having boys or girls, although we both want to provide ds's with male role models - so we're pleased their Dad is on the scene and my brother is a favourite Uncle! Ds1 also loves our male friends - is currently interested in weeing standing up - though doesn't do it yet - and takes the opportunity to follow our male friends into the bathroom when they're going to do a wee - very off putting!! Grin

Once we'd made the decision to have our own we both wanted to carry a child, so we agreed we'd take it in turns to conceive the first one and then the other one would get exclusive rights to trying for no. 2! it took me a lot longer to get pregnant - I've got polycystic ovaries and other bits and bobs, and eventually was put on Metformin which did the trick - took 19 months and we were going to start alternating again if I'd got to 2 years without conceiving. So glad I was able to though.

We've ummed and aahed about going for no. 3 - only because it'd probably be dp that would get pregnant (she's much better at it!) and then I might feel like I'd want to have a 4th and all of a sudden that's a lot of children! So we'll probably stick to 2! You might find that your dp wants to have one if you get pregnant - see how it goes.

Dottydot · 16/04/2006 15:57

P.S. Just to say our friends that did the sperm donor thing made sure they saved some sperm for future babies - they've just had their 2nd (also 2 boys!) with the same sperm so their ds's are genetically half brothers as well!

motherinferior · 16/04/2006 17:04

Hello,
I've not been around for a few days, so missed this original post. All I wanted to say is that I know a number of rather wonderful lesbian mothers - who are making a much better fist of parenting than many straight couples. Good luck! xxx

Juno · 16/04/2006 17:10

This is the most I've ever posted in one afternoon! Just to say, I also have concerns about their different needs, being males to our females. I know, for example, that ds1 is coming up to the age where he has to be more particular about his personal hygiene (dot will kill me if I start talking about foreskins, but you know what I mean) but I think he knows enough non-squeamish men for either he or I to ask, so it's not a major problem. And a friend I used to work with, a gay man, said it was important to him - he lived with his mum and his sister - to spend time in all-male company while he was growing up. He felt he needed it to develop. So although I bristled very slightly at the knowledge that my sons would need something I could never begin to provide, I can at least acknowledge that need and facilitate it.

Sparklemagic · 16/04/2006 18:21

I wanted to wish you the best of luck and hope it all goes well for you.

i wanted to say that while I feel there is no reason not to have kids as a same sex couple, I do strongly agree with the fact that boys in particular need a male about if possible. I have been quite stunned by how different my DH's input is to mine with DS - he absoultely LOVES rough and tumble, being thrown about dangerously, being in DH's arms while he runs and jumps at 100 miles an hour, playfighting - all the physical roughness that I am not actually big or strong enough to provide! He loves this, and needs it and thrives on it, it is really important to his development I think, along with being with dad for the nurturing times as well, being read to and cuddled when upset.

So I feel it is worth trying to identify a male friend or friends who you feel could provide this if you have a boy.

I'm also sure that girls benefit hugely from a male presence too but don't have a girl so can't say how! It must be good for children to be fully involved with both sexes, that's really my view.

But I think two loving parents of whatever sex makes for a happy and secure child! Best of luck.

Hattie05 · 16/04/2006 18:21

What a wonderful feel good thread!

Juno - i don't think anyone can ever say hand on heart that their children will never be unhappy at their family make-up. Whether you are a straight or gay couple.

Our life experiences are what make us, positive stuff can come from any negative experience provided a child has support all around them, which it certainly sounds like your children have.

Mercy · 16/04/2006 18:59

Sorry, haven't read all the thread so apologies if i repeat anyone else's views.

My late best friend was in a similarish situation. She came from a family of staunch Catholics and in her early twenties realised she was bisexual - difference is she did not want children. She was mongamous in each of her 3 or 4 relationships.

Anyway, it was discussed at great lenght and she decided she just had to be honest with her immediate family re her sexuality. She felt that their faith should be strong enough for them to accept her sexuality. Her parents were pretty naive/sheltered tbh - well at least imo/

Anyway, she did tell them and after the initial surprise, they were always 100% supportive of her. The proviso was that neither of her grandmothers were told! Which I can understand tbh - especially one of them who was in an enclosed order.

I'm sure this is of no help whatsoever Smile - but wishing you well! Just wanted to share a tiny part of my friend's story.

kokeshi · 16/04/2006 21:18

Thanks again all of you for your thoughts. I was out today for lunch with my family and Dp, and I said to her, "Do you think Easter Sunday is a good time to come out to my parents?". She looked at me in kinda half disbelief but I could see there was an element of absolute joy that I'd actually mentioned it! I was only half joking but for me it's a big step, it's usually something I try not to talk about.

When we were out with my family today, thinking about all your advice, I realised that she is very much part of my family already. My parents love her, she's always invited to family dos and can sit and talk with them for ages. My younger brother (I've always got on really well with him) thinks she's fantastic too and is always asking about her work (she's an artist).

It's funny, I actually feel closer to her now by talking about her on here! She really is a gem. I guess I owe her that much to acknowledge her as more than just a friend to my nearest and dearest.

Mners, you're a solid bunch. I wish everyone well in their own lives and hope I can be as supportive to you all in the future Smile

OP posts:
kokeshi · 16/04/2006 21:21

Ps, Juno pmsl at foreskin speak! Grin Peeing standing up...I wouldn't have the first clue!

OP posts:
lact8 · 17/04/2006 01:00

Aah kokeshi, you brought a tear to my eye about the acknowledging bit Smile