At what point do a childs errors become their own responsibility?

[Prufrock]

I've been pondering this a lot recently. I went through a fairly rebellious stage at 17/18, and do accept that I was not a nice person. But many of my antics were a huge cry for attention from my parents, and a rebellion against the overly strict and pushy upbringing I had had. So I feel that my parents have to take some responsibility for turning me into the person I was.

And I know that I feel completely responsible for any behaviour my nearly 4 and nearly 2 year old exhibit. I've taught them everything they know (well, with some input from their father )and so if they misbehave, or start exhibiting unwelcome character traits (ultracompetitive and anally retentive spring to mind) it's becauseof teh example I have set, and it's my job to gently ease them out of exhibiting that behaviour.

But on the other hand, I have friends, and know of many mumsnetters, who seem to be doing everything right, and yet whose kids still f up. At what point does it not become your parents who f you up, but yourself. How much of our characters, as adults, do we have to take responsibility for, and do you draw the line at the same place for your own kids?

interesting too to think about good behaviour. to what extent do you attribute the good traits you have and the good things you do to your parents? To what extent do you take credit for your dcs good traits? I also think there is a huge difference between behaviour and character. Yes I think we can take credit when they remember to say thankyou, that is behaviour we (as good mners ) have actively promoted. But when out of the blue, without prompting, they do something particularly kind, or say something clever, perceptive or funny, I think we have to attribute that to them

Fascinating subject, Prufrock.

My DS1 and DS2 are already so different from each other that I have already stopped believing that I can take either all of the credit, or all of the blame, for good and bad misbehaviour/character traits respectively.

I read this and went away to think about it... not sure I've got any further than that, actually

Tbh I think that sometimes I need to take more responsibility for my own behaviour and stop blaming my parents so much for the way I am now (at 34!).

I have to say that at this stage (when my oldest is only 8.5), I think that if they went seriously off the rails in the future I would find it hard not to blame myself almost entirely for it. But that's just me.

Prufrock, as a parent of a 16 year old this question is very relevant to me right now. She has just come in from school but I will get back to this later... I have very mixed feelings about this (I think).

Yep, I'm mulling over this too. It's quite like Issymum's "benign neglect" question too.

Starting point: depends on the sort of errors you're thinking of, I think - and whether you/your child is the sort of person who naturally learns from experience, or genuinely needs to be guided - or, put another way, what level of common sense they've got. I do feel very very responsible for ds (nearly 7), who needs principles spelt out with total clarity (but can understand with the right input) - and if, instead of helping him through as I do, I were to leave him to sink or swim he would be totally justified in thinking (as a young adult, say) that I had neglected something important.

in my own opinion a child becomes responsible for his/her own errors once they leave the family home or reach an age where they can easily be independant. we are all human and no amount of bringing up children the 'right way' will stop them going off and making mistakes and society and school will always have an effect. :)

Interesting question Prufrock! We are all products of our upbringing to a certain extent, but we also have responsibility for our own actions to.
For example, my 6 yr old gets in to trouble at school sometimes for silly behaviour & I ask him why he did it and he says: "Oh, George told me to". And I end up having that age old discussion with him about if George told him to chop off his own foot - would he do it?
I personally try to get my children to take responsibility for their behaviour even now (6 & nearly 4) by showing that there are consequences to their behaviour. I think that children should be encouraged to take responsibility as soon as possible & I am a great believer in "do as I do".
Despite my pontificating, I'll probably end up with horrible, asbo teenagers!!!

prufrock I think it lies when they learn right from wrong

they can make the choice to do the good thing

they can make the choice to do something bad

I have always put scenarios to my children along with long boring lectures

and it is entirely up to them what path they take and lead

I can only guide them

Obviously our children can make their own choices, and should, and should take responsibility for the consequences. But if they make the wrong ones, is that because they are inherently bad, or that they haven't been given the correct guidance to be able to make the correct choices?

Could be all sorts of things though. Could be they were born with a genetic tendency to addiction, got involved with drugs & into crime because of that.
Could be that the parents were too strict & they rebelled.
Could be that they fundamentally disagree with society as it is ....
The nature / nurture debate is ongoing. I think its a degree of both myself. Being adopted, I have a particular interest in this subject. Think its fascinating.

prufrock i would have to say inherently bad in some children
as you can advise till you are blue in the face
and kids think you are nothing but a doesnt know anything old fart
they always know more than we do

bugsy made some good points too
could be down to the morality and code of the parents iykwim

It's a very good question, this.

My parents certainly gave me all the right guidance - yet I consciously and wilfully chose to do lots of "bad" things in my teens. I smoked, I drank, I lied to them, I went behind their backs, I twagged school...I relied on the fact that I was clever enough to do well academically to save my bacon otherwise.

In the end I think that most of us learn best from out own mistakes. It takes a lot of maturity to learn from other people's

Every year I tell very nice, bright kids, that if they don't work hard at their Biology A level they will fail. Some have C grades in GCSE and they know that I am talking nonsense. Come the first meodular exam they get Us. They sheepishly tell me they wish they had listened to me.

We tell them, these are the things you have to write about in your course work to get 1 mark, these for 3 marks. We spell it out, step by step. They still ignore you and ger a U grade
Every year, I tell you! And these are nice kids!

MB's post about learning from other's mistakes is perfectly expressed and perfectly true.

My sister and I have the same parents yet were radically different teenagers and young adults. I was good at passing exams, worked hard at subjects that interested me (like English and history) and coasted through those that didn't without too much effort. Was not terribly rebellious except in terms of politics and school rule-breaking ie never got into smoking let alone drugs.

My sister went completely off the rails. Dropped out of school aged 15, hung around with (thankfully rather petty) criminals, got pregnant at 19, etc. etc. etc. Didn't get herself a job until she was in her early 20s. Bad attitude to everyone apart from her friends - really, really awful. She's now a very responsible and rather lovely adult making a much bigger contribution to society than me.

How much responsibility can we put on our parents for all this? Dunno. But I think by the time you are really grown-up (mid 20s, for me) I'd say whatever your parents did or didn't do, you have to accept responsibility for the way you run your own life.

Having spent a year at loggerheads with my dd (now 16 & in final year of GCSE's) I have finally and reluctantly had to accept that there comes a point as a parent that one has to allow children to make their own mistakes (even if that means they screw up their GCSE's). There is only so much one can do and it is heartbreaking.

Dd has always been very sensible & very together and we were always very close... but in the last year she has become someone I hardly recognise. Big things have happened in our lives in the last year/18 months and dd has not dealt with them well. She has had counselling but frankly this did not help it simply allowed her to wallow further.

I have done understanding, I have done tough and we have talked, talked & talked some more. I have been to the school to talk to her head of year several times.

I feel that I have failed her. Everybody who ever met her previously had said what a lovely, together girl she was, a credit to me. Now she is obsessed with her social life and what she looks like and that is it. She has attitude and gets drunk frequently. I don't like the friends she gets around with now BUT I know stopping her from seeing them will only back fire on me.

We have rules about revision and homework and the times she has to be in BUT she does nothing but the minimal. She is lazy and thoughtless and she has changed her mind about doing A'levels and has chosen a college course that doesn't do her justice and I fear she has chosen as an easy option. (But, frankly, her teachers & I, will be amazed if she gets the grades for that although the grades she'd been expected to get could have led to A'levels!)

Just before my Mum died I thought dd I'd always known was back but it lasted for about a month after Mum had died. I feel like I've spent a year banging my head against a wall and I now have to let her get on with it and just be here to pick up the pieces if it all goes wrong (and hope that nothng too bad does go wrong).

I have had to do some deep soul searching about this. I've had to accept that dd has character traits that are more her Dad than I (she has not lived with her Dad since she was 2.5 & he has only been in her life again in the last 18 months). I've also had to accept that whether it's the clothes she wears; the friends she chooses; her lack of interest in the world around her; it is her choice: she is an individual and maybe this is her way of rebelling against me... who knows? Maybe it is nthing to do with me at all.

Winnie, there is hope. She may make some awful mistakes before she grows up but may well end up being a fab adult despite all that - see my post below about my sister. She was a COW to my mother throughout her teenage years - dh (then dp) was appalled first time he met her. But she grew up, eventually, and is lovely now.

That gives me some hope Edam I just hope and pray nothing too bad does happen in the meantime.

Me too Winnie. This sounds bizarre and could be stupid, but I suspect if you make a big enough fuss about relatively minor rebellions she may not need to push it further. IYSWIM. Although no guarantee.

winnie, coming to this late. As you've said, there comes a time when you've got to sit back and let them make their own mistakes. I know I would find this so hard. I suspect my oldest son will not be the most compliant of teenagers either. I don't know what the answer is as you can't make a person study - they have to do it for themselves in the end. When this is is anyone's guess.

It might interest you to know that my degree course year group (about 30 people) was full of mature students (most in their their twenties, not straight form school) who had dropped out of education to do other things before returning to college. Nearly all of them then went on to become teachers and so respectible, responsible members of the community.

Prufrock, my husband had parents who could be strict and pushy, according to him. He rebelled big time in his teens. He too feels they have some responsiblity in turning him into the person he is. He has taken responsiblity for himself now but often pinpoints certain decisions they made ( like moving the family from new zealand to england when he was 13 years old) that directly affected his choices at the time. No easy answer is there?