Am I being overprotective?

[overprotective]

Last night DS (age 3.5 years) woke up at 3am and wouldn't go back to sleep. He had gotten into our bed and when he became so noisy that we feared he would wake DD (5 months) DH got up to take him back to his room. The bedrooms are right next to each other and I could hear them even though DH had shut the door. DS wouldn't settle. He had his first school trip today and was very excited. The situation escalated until DH became quite confrontational and, in my opinion, quite bullying. He started telling DS that he would call his teacher and say that he couldn't go on the trip if he didn't go to bed. DS of course became more and more frantic and I heard him get up and try to open the bedroom door. Then DH must've picked him up and put him back on the bed a bit forcefully from the sound of the bedsprings and the fact that DS then started screaming.

I couldn't take it anymore and got up and tapped on the door. When DH answered I said "I can hear you and it sounds like you're being a bit mean.' I admit, I should've chosen my words more carefully but felt quite shaken and upset by what I had overheard. DH then stormed off to the loo. I tried to calm DS and explained that everyone was tired because it was the middle of the night. I didn't want to undermine DH.

DH came back, still angry, and said he would be sleeping elsewhere and then stormed off to the sofa leaving me to deal with a distraught DS. We've had almost the exact same situation before and DH accused me of trying to be the good guy and make him the bad guy. That is absolutely not true but I don't think I should just stand by and let him bully DS. I've certainly had my own regrettable moments with DS. It's usually when DH is travelling or working late and I've reached the end of my rope. If DH was here I would hope that he would intervene. I've told him this but he doesn't believe me.

Am I overreacting? Is DH's behaviour acceptable? How could I have handled this situation better?

No, I don't think you are overreacting. Getting wound up and shouty will never calm anyone down. I think you need to have a serious talk about how you both handle things like this.

I'd have left them to it tbh. In our house whoever's dealing with it is dealing with it. It doesn't sound that bad, I do threaten to take things away if behaviour's bad, in fact you'd have hated me (I hated me) last night, I screamed at ds when he woke us for the 4th time for no good reason. It's not ideal but we can all lose it a bit in the middle of the night. You'd have handled it better imo by leaving him to deal with it and only stepping in if he asked you to. Sorry, probably not what you wanted to hear.

It is hard though isn't it, when your DH is doing something differently to how you would do it and you know that you could sort it out - my DH and I are usually pretty similar in the way we handle things and will leave the other to it, although on a couple of occasions I've had to bite my tongue.

I can empathise with overprotective though, when its the middle of the night and the baby is sleeping...

I think I would have left them to it, but would have probably laid in bed grinding my teeth!

I can see both sides of the story here. In part, your DH was knackered, just wanted to sleep before the alarm goes off. TBH I've used little threats like that before with DS1. On this occasion I think it was bad timing, but everything is easier said with hindsight.

Our DS has never been too good at sleeping, up until Aug last year, and some of those times is was so hard for my DH, he wouldn't remember driving to work as he was so knackered from DS waking up so often.

We found the best solution was to take DS back to his bed straight away and climb in with him give him a cuddle. He went off straight away, and we didn't have any repercusions. Maybe you could give this a try should it happen again?

I don't think anyone is going to win in this, your DH was right in someways but IMO took it a bit too far for the time of night, however, in someways I understand, he was tired and desperate to get back to sleep. I think you have to be careful DS doesn't see you as the soft touch who gives in, as this will bite back hard the older he gets (not just on sleeping) If you and your DH are talking, could you maybe come up with a plan? A compromise as to who will get up and do what? I can sympathise as I have a 9m old DS who also like to sleep in our bed and feed through the night, it's a nightmare if DS does wake up?

Lastly, was this a one of as your DS was excited about his trip or does he waken every night?
(sorry for long post rambling!)

argh! so many mistakes in that post. I mean a one off not of. Thats trying to type and BF DS2!! Must grow extra arms!

WWW, no, I'm happy to hear all opinions. I really feel lost in this situation. I think it comes down to me and DH having different views of what's acceptable and unacceptable when dealing with DS. I've certainly lost it myself many times. The big difference seems to be that I regret my behaviour whereas DH seems to find his behaviour acceptable. In fact, it's becoming his default way of dealing with DS. DS has even started trying to avoid DH, won't let him tuck him in at night, help him use the toilet, etc and has even said he doesn't love DH anymore. I know children say these things and DS has said the same to me before but DH takes it to heart and it seems to add to the downward spiral. I just don't know how to stop it.

Callisto, we did have a serious talk the last time that this happened but it seems to have had no effect. I know we'll have to talk about it all again but we seem to get no where. I feel so frustrated.

Oh ok, sorry, I thought this was a one off middle of the night losing it type of thing. If it's his default parenting method then no, it's not good, I agree with you there. Hmm, I don't know what to suggest then, men aren't mad keen on being told how to be parents ime (not from my dh but ex dh HATES me telling him how to handle ds) - could you bring up some stuff by saying something like 'Oh do you know what, I realised today that when I did xyz ds responded really well, I think I'm going to keep doing it' or 'someone on mumsnet said they do zgt with their ds so I'm going to give it a go, what do you think?' - that way he won't feel attacked and got at but you will have told him your views on dealing with your ds generally.

MamaG, I did grind my teeth for as long as I could. That was my plan but when things got worse and worse I just couldn't stand it.

Mumatuks, some really good points there. DH's plan was to take DS back to his room and get in bed with him but DS wanted to stay with me. It's part of this thing of him not wanting to be with DH at the moment. I think that's in part due to DH's increasing lack of patience but also down to the new baby and DS feeling a bit clingy to me. DS does regularly wake up and get in bed with us. We had a family bed until DS was two and don't mind him coming in. He usually goes right back to sleep but last night he was so excited about the trip that he couldn't settle.

I've explained to DH that when he gets angry like that he's hurting himself because when DS gets frantic it decreases the chance of him going to sleep. I guess in the middle of the night it can be difficult to be sensible. I must say, once DS calmed down he passed out within 15 minutes. I just wish he could've done that without all the drama.

WWW, I do exactly what you've described. I once even typed up an article and emailed it to DH saying "Just found this article. Interesting ideas. What do you think?!! It did make a difference then but he seems to be on to me lately and doesn't take much notice. I think having the second baby has somehow pushed him over the edge. He was a wonderful hands-on Dad when DS was younger but he seems to have lost his confidence. I think when you're not dealing with little people all the time it's much harder when you do have to deal with them.

Hi again OP.
I'm thinking about your DS's relationship with his Dad. I'm thinking they need to start fixing it now, before it gets worse. It must be sad for your DH but very frustrating also, as he loves his DS dearly.
Can you encourage them to do a nice activity together? i.e. Go to the shop and buy a kite together. DS and Dad choose one together that they both like. Maybe Dad could give the moiney to DS for him to pay the cashier. I'm thinking this says that Daddy trusts him (a fiver is loads at that age!) Then the best bit. Assemble it together, Daddy show DS how to do it. Maybe you could all go out together, but you take a back seat and sit on the grass with DD and "watch you and Daddy fly the kite" If they aren't into that maybe they could just wash the car together (providing your not in London with this hosepipe ban!) or if they love cars, go watch Banger Racing Speedway with Motorbikes?
I think we're pretty much approaching the same situation with our DS (he is 2.6 yrs) DH loves DS1 to bits, but finds it hard to give praise and being an only child, doesn't know how to "play" cars and garages. No one in his family got on the floor to play, they left him to it. However, I clearly remember me and my DB running cars everywhere, building ramps making "brrrmmmmm" noises! I do it now and DH looks at me like I'm potty! (well I am, but I don't want to make too big a fuss on that one! )
I hope they sort it out together, it sounds like they need a bit of father/son bonding. It's a young age, and I'm sure it'll improve as your DS gets older.
HTH!

Mumatuks, you're absolutely right and the situation is getting worse. When DS gets in bed with us he pushes right up against me because he doesn't want to be near DH and I know it breaks DH's heart. They do spend quality time together but for some reason DH's expectations have changed and he gets frustrated with normal 3 year old behaviour, then things start to escalate. I don't know why this has happened. I've tried to reassure DH that most 3 year olds are defiant, obstinant and can be quite difficult at times. He just can't seem to handle it. I guess we just need to keep talking about it and persevere.

OP, it sounds as if your ds is playing the two of you off against each other, pushing dh into the role of bad cop and you into the role of good cop. Your ds sounds a bit like my dd2 who has an unerring instinct for detecting the slightest chink in the parental resolve, and will milk it to the max. Even if it involves being told off or shouted at, it's still attention, which is always preferable to being ignored.

You do need to agree a policy on a low-key consistent response that both of you are happy with, and stick to it like glue. You can even write it down if necessary. For a start, why are you letting ds get into your bed in the night? It doesn't exactly send the message that he's expected to sleep in his own bed. He needs to know exactly what's expected of him, and that any attempts on his part to control the agenda and move things onto his own terms will be unsuccessful, and will not result in treats like a cuddle with mummy, or even the excitement of seeing daddy lose the plot.

We had a nightmare week or two a little while ago where dh was home early and instead of leaving dd2 to cry for a bit at bedtime as I would have done, he decided that he'd try to 'fix' the problem, and that all she required was a drink of water/stern talking to/angle of open door adjusted etc etc. Of course all this achieved was to feed the tantrummy frenzy, and she didn't crash out until 10.30pm, after a good four hours of whinging and shrieking.

We had to sit down and formally agree a policy along the lines of Tanya Byron: put child to bed, leave door exactly one hand's breadth open. Any attempts at escaping treated by picking up child and returning to bed without comment or fuss. You may have to do this a good few times the first day, but they do get the idea eventually.

Frogs, thanks so much for that. We've certainly been there with other issues like bedtime routine as you described. When DH gets home from work he often wants to play with DS which of course gets DS excited and makes bedtime more difficult. Or food. DH has been giving DS breakfast since DD was born. We've discussed what constitutes a suitable breakfast and yet he's given DS biscuits more than once! "Well, that's what he wanted."

We do discuss these things and agree on an approach but how can I get DH to stick to it? He always seems keen and agrees on things like DS not having so much sugar but then, when the time arrives to act accordingly, he goes for the easy option.

The idea of DS manipulating the situation was something I hadn't really considered but I will definitely speak to DH about this and hopefully we can be more united. If I can just get DH to stick to it!

I'm realising that last night's drama was obviously a symptom of a much bigger set of issues. I feel like I've opened a can of worms this morning!

sorry I'm back again, tell me to shut up if you like.
Just reading your posts, it sounds like poor DH is trying so hard to get on with DS he's for example letting him have biscuits for breakie. It's like he doesn't want to cause a scene, or give youan excuse to have to step in. Maybe he feels like my DH in that he actually has no idea of what goes on in a day in our house as he is at work. Does your DH have enough holiday time to say book a week off soonish? Maybe then, if you can on your routine as normal, but invite him into it, and say throw in the odd special day out, DH would then get a better idea and maybe feel more confident?... Hey, you could even bugger off shopping for the day and let him have both of them... (now now, lets not plant ideas!! )
Joking aside, I really hope you sort this out with your DH and DS. Best wishes. x

Mumatuks, thanks so much for helping me see a different side to it all. I hadn't considered the idea that DH was just trying to please DS with the biscuits. I assumed he was just going for the easy option. I can see that I need to be a bit more sensitive to the situation. I'm sure you're right that DH doesn't have a clue what happens here on a normal day. At the weekends he just plays with DS or tries to relax. He's very good at the fun stuff. It's when it comes to the harder things like bedtime, food, discipline, etc that he seems to stumble. His confidence has really been knocked. DD is so young that she still wants to be with me all the time so I think DH is feeling rejected by both children. I'm starting to see it from his side now. Must be so hard for him.

Grumpfrumpy, unfortunately DH usually misses bedtime because he works late. He sometimes gets home just before DS is tucked in but he always misses bathtime. We've tried it with DH tucking DS in but DS throws a big fit. The times that we've persisted DH ends up losing it and it can become a horrible situation. I've never interferred in that situation but a number of times DH has asked me to take over. I would actually love for DH to be able to tuck DS in more as it's quite difficult to coordinate it all with DD too but it's just so rare that he's home in time. And they do spend time together. For instance, DH is on the school trip with DS today. It just seems like things are suddenly falling apart a bit.

I will stay out of it more. My concern is that the bullying aggressive approach that DH seems to be taking could do DS harm in the long run. DH's father was a nasty, tyrannical man who used both emotional and physical abuse to control his children. I don't think DH would ever intentionally hurt the children but I think his yardstick for measuring such behaviour may be a bit skewed. Could this behaviour, for instance, affect DS's self esteem, the way he relates to other people?