Can I start a support thread for parents with dcs who are difficult to discipline?

[queenofmeringue]

For whatever reason. Actually I would be interested in opinions as to why some dcs are so much more difficult to discipline than others.

I'll start: I have a wonderful, funny, clever 9yo DS who I find so, so difficult to discipline. I also have 2 DDs who I don't really find difficult at all - they have their moments like any child but on the whole are co-operative and want to do the right thing. I feel they are on my side, so to speak.

DS had the normal toddler tantrums at the appropriate age except he never grew out of them. Although he is improving all the time at controlling himself with maturity, he still reacts very explosively if he can't do/have something he wants. Or if he has to do something he doesn't want to do. Unfortunately his meltdowns make family life very stressful on a regular basis.

I think we are good, consistent parents. We don't often lose our tempers and don't smack. We are assertive and don't allow the dcs to control us, but oh my goodness, it's so difficult to get DS to do anything other than what he wants, when he wants. I pick my battles with everything possible but there are some things which he simply has to do.

At this point I would say the best approach with DS is staying calm in the face of his huge rages (not easy) and using the 1-2-3 Magic strategy with removal of nintendo/tv when I reach 3. He now accepts these consequences, but not sure this approach really improves anything long-term.

I am really interested to learn from others with similar dcs which is why I started this thread.

This sounds like my DS (10). Anyone outside the family thinks he's a lovely, polite little boy. At home he sounds like your DS, and he can have total meltdowns over nothing e.g. being asked to bring a glass down from his bedroom.

As parents, we try to do as you say, be fair and consistent and as yet DD seems to be very well behaved and easy going.

Although DS doesn't often have a meltdown, when he does it's like the end of the world. He will scream and cry for up to an hour, and bang and throw things in his bedroom. Sanctions imposed seem to have no effect, it seems as is he really just can't control himself. This can't be true though, as he has never had a meltdown at school etc.

This could be a great thread for me, I'm on the verge of taking him to the doctor to ask advice. DD even asked me if he could go and live somewhere else, last time it all kicked off :-(

So, I haven't been helpful at all. Sorry. However, you've made me feel less alone, so thank you. I'll be watching with interest to see what MN makes of it all.

I have one like this too, so will be watching with interest. Ds2 is lively but when something gies wrong i just seem to be unable to so anything. What ever i do is met with a tantrum that lasts for up to an hour. He is 12 and not been so bad till about age 10. I'm wondering if its hormones

i found this book useful several years ago - DD (also a 1st born) was a nightmare child who just could not control herself and her temper.

The author has has a chapter that describes how sometimes there is a mismatch between parent and child personality type. If you have parents who were compliant as children, and they end up with a willful rebellious child, there is just no way they can understand eachother.

He talks about our parenting style, having been learned as a child through watching our own parents as role models and He talks about the "dance" that we get into with our kids, where we threaten and tell them over and over again what will happen if they do X...then they do it and we do nothing except warn them again. and again. So kids learn that the first 2 or 3 times you threaten them, you're not serious.

We have found that using the language of choices has been effective for us.

"DS, clean your room"
(refusal)
"Either you clean your room or you will lose all screen time for 24 hours - which is it to be?"
(room cleaned)

No argument, no debate, his choice.

Also, sanctions have to fit the crime and you have to be prepared to follow through - its no good grounding them for a week if you then want them to occupy themselves on Saturday morning watching cartoons, or they have a TV in their room. We also stopped heaping additional punishments on for the tantrum....so after 10 minutes of screaming, we were adding a punishment. We stopped that and started ignoring the behaviour.

Hatti, I have ordered it and will let you all know how I get on

So pleased to get your replies, thanks.

kittythames, dietstartsmonday and hattifattner your DCs sound just like my DS. I agree that it's an inability to control himself, but he's also fine at school (although dreamy and often unengaged if he's not interested) and at other people's houses. I guess he has to let off steam at home. We actually had a good morning (not in UK, morning here) and everyone was ready on time for school. Most mornings involve at least one outburst from DS - usually over putting on sun cream which he hates, or deliberately winding up his sisters by refusing to open the bathroom door so they can get in to brush their teeth. This morning I reminded them all that we were leaving in 15 minutes for school and there would be a consequence for anyone who was not ready. And it seemed to work, for once!

Hatti I thought I'd read all the books (desperate) but actually haven't read that one. What you wrote rings some bells - I was a very passive, compliant child so DS was rather a shock to me (and my parents). The good thing about the 1-2-3 Magic book is that you have to give the consequence on 3 so can't be tempted to continue with threats. I take DS's nintendo away for a day each time I reach 3 (not really a day as he only gets 30 minutes or so on it once all homework etc is done) but he can earn back days for good behaviour. I know what you mean about adding punishments for the tantrum - it's difficult, I mean, if DS is screaming and crying about something very minor which I feel he should be able to control himself better over, I will tell him "stop screaming by the time I get to 3, or you will lose your computer time for another day." I don't know if that's the right thing to do though. I also give him choices, but it does get wearing to have to do that every single time I ask him to do something! It's like he can't let himself do anything without a fight first.

he does also warn that things get worse before they get better (because our little angels are used to getting their own way through bad behaviour and tantrums) but I can assure you that things do get better if you are consistent - this also means consistency between parents.

One of our issues was that my DH worked away, and didnt want to be "victorian dad" on his return and so would engage in lengthy discussions about her behaviour - grade A attention! - and be very inconsistent and reluctant to impose any sanctions, until out of sheer frustration he would explode in anger.

Meanwhile, I was stressed at dealing with it all solo, and would be very draconian about things.

It takes a major conscious effort to deprogramme yourself from your own parents style of parenting and adopt something new, although it seems you are halfway there with 123 magic.

I think being consistent yourself and within a partnership is key to cracking this one.

AFter we adopted the approach, DD threw the mother of all tantrums....3.5 hours of screaming, thowing clothes out of her window, destroying her bedroom. We did not engage (very hard. WIne helped.). Miraculously she never threw another doozy of a tantrum - it was max 10 minutes.

The author also advises having a key word to say when either one of you has had enough. We used "ICE" and either one of you saying it would mean immediate disengagement and retreat to separate rooms to cool off (hence ICE).
The logic being that sometimes you get wrapped up in the dynamics of the "dance" and you need to step away.

I think you need to let the kids use this a couple of times before you do. Otherwise they dont buy into it.

Other advice i would give is to learn to say sorry for your own behaviour. We are all unreasonable at times, and we should model how they need to apologise. Learning how to say sorry when you have lost your temper is key to them learning to say sorry (and acknowledge their behaviour).

Finally, Id say that acknowledging that things arent working and doing something as simple as reading a book or attending a course are fantastic steps forward - too many parents hate the bahviour but do nothing to modify their own behaviour and expect different results. Definition of insanity! So well done for being open to change.

But what about a child(5) who will not cooperate for rewards and just accepts the punishment?
I am at my wits end.
I am consistant but she seems unable to control her self.
She knows she will not get a story if she screams and fusses about brushing her teeth but does it 50 % of the time.

She is immediately removed from the lounge when she hits or irritates her siblings when watching tv but still does it even when it is her choice of program.

She misses treats as others will not take her (they take the older and younger one).
If I make a threat I always carry it out but she still continues to do what she wants minutes after it is explained what the consequence will be. ( I have her parrot it back so I know she has heard and understood.)

I feel so sad at her missing out on so many things not to mention the stress of her continually hurting and teasing people and animals and being rude.
No one else in our family is like that.
I tell her I love her and give her cuddles but I do not like her.
She is very clever and able.

She never gets what she asks for rudely but persists in asking rudely first time.
Changing her diet has helped but she is still hard work.

On a positive note she doesn't hold a grudge just accepts that trip out cancelled, pudding binned, tv banned after initial screaming fit.
When she chooses she is funny and delightful and can act very lovingly and kindly but it seems to amuse her more to torment and defy.
This has been the same all her life.

My 4 yr old will take any punishment offered and does not mind. He can be quite aggressive to other kids and every time I disipline him it makes no difference, he has no favourite toy and doesn't watch much tv so confiscating toys is hard I have put everything in a black bin bag before but to no avail. He loves his music and CDs so have started banning all music and taking his CDs away but he just makes his own music by singing he is a very happy go lucky nothing phases him boy and the other day he said " no one will ever be able to take my voice away and that is my best rging" so like you I have no strategies and am flummoxed of where to go next!

I have one of these. DC 2 is almost impossible to discipline. He's willful, rebellious, argumentative and has an answer for everything. He's also tricky and wily and on top of that extremely active. He behaves fairly well in school and at friends homes (or so I'm told) but at home he causes....great confusion and delay with mischief, arguments, pestering and so on. DCs 1 and two are completely different; they are compliant and easy to get along with.

Dd2 really doesn't seem to be bothered by any removal of privileges and thinks that time-outs are a joke. Unless I stand guard and physically barricade the door, he just walks out when he feels like it and sneaks off to another part of the house. I was a fairly easy-going and obedient child and I feel like I'm at complete loggerheads with him all the time. Everything is a battle requiring lengthy reasoning and explanation and it's exhausting. I'm quite certain he'd make a brilliant lawyer one day but right now he's killing me. He does have some positive traits, of course, but I'm having a great deal of difficulty remembering them of late because his behavior is so all-consuming.

I don't have any advice but just wanted to commiserate .

McBlubber, I could have written your post.

All I can say is that I was following a negative script handed down to me by my toxic mother, who I now realise is the most negative, cruel, self serving narc you will ever meet.

I did not want to be like her, and it was quite a shock to realise I was. Exactly like her.

So....your statement "I tell her I love her and give her cuddles but I do not like her." - yes, I know exactly what you mean. And I think you are very brave to admit it to yourself.

And on a deep level, she knows it too, which is why she pushes you so hard.

I think its a case of "Fake it till you make it".

There is no easy fix to this, but to start with, start to be OTT positive about the good. "Ah I love it when you are so kind to your sister/cousin/friend/Cat" and other positive statements that will ensure that she knows you care about her... And you do. You dislike the behaviour, not the child, and I think you have to accept and internalise that fact. You love the kid, you hate the behaviour.

Follow up with a small reward on the good days and give positive affirmation about how much you enjoyed your day/morning/visit with her. Dont be tempted to add the negative "because you behaved yourself for once!"

Also, when she has done something wrong, do not resort to negative statements about her - make sure you focus the negative about the behaviour. So eg dont say "You are so naughty! Why dont you listen!" rather say "I feel cross when you don't do what I asked you" and "I dont like it when you hit your brother, it makes him sad and it makes me sad".

I found also that my DD had to learn to name these crazy emotions, and be able to vocalise "I am feeling grumpy!" rather than lashing out. Sometimes its important to stop and acknowledge the emotion, rather than focussing on the behaviour, eg "I know you feel very cross when your brother takes your barbie doll, because its your precious thing. But I feel sad when you hurt him, and I would like you to be kind to him instead."

Try offer sanctions as a choice..."you can stop tormenting your brother or you can have early bedtime this week - which would you like?"
or
"You can put away your dollies, or you can lose your bedtime story tonight, which would you prefer?"

Find a sanction that she will care about. ALternatively find something that she really wants to do. One of mine was that if she behaved, she could have a bath with her socks on. The novelty worked, once.

Look at reward jars/sticker charts.

Try to target a specific behaviour rather that generic compliance and global good behaviour - Thats unrealistic. Pick one specific behaviour you would like to change, and set a target that could be met in a week with effort. Reward with a low cost treat - a comic, a trip to the park or pool, staying up 30 minutes later.

Be generous with your stars and stickers. So if the target behaviour is to be kind to her sibling, then any act of kindness gets a reward, bad behaviour doesnt get a reward, or necessarily a sanction (depending on what you target) but certainly you would comment "What a shame you thumped your brother, you could have had another 3 stars on your "going to the swimming pool with the slides" chart.

Dont stop trying to bridge the gap between you - it may take time, but you can do it.

Great to have more responses - so helpful to be able to discuss strategies, and thank for all the good advice so far.

Agree 100% with those who said their dcs don't care about punishments - DS has never responded to rewards or punishments much at all. He used to fly into a rage when he heard what the punishment would be, now he accepts it and usually remembers not to ask for tv/computer/whatever. But, I don't think it makes any difference to his behaviour - the next time he wants to run away from me screaming because I asked him to do something, he won't remember that there will be a consequence. Sometimes I feel that I'm giving the consequences just so he knows he can't get away with that behaviour, and also so his siblings see what I expect from them all.

I did read Unconditional Parenting, but it just doesn't sit well with me, although I took on some of it. I think DS behaves better in a strict routine with clear boundaries. He pushes against boundaries like mad, but now that he's older I do see that's it been worthwhile and I can't remember the last time he deliberately went and did something he was told not to do. He will still make an almighty scene and make my life as bad as he can though.

I feel that any improvements in controlling himself have been simply down to maturity.

Agree that it's too easy to get into a negative habit. DS is amazing and wonderful and I need to remember that more when he's being a complete pain.