Is this game suitable/appropriate?

[zippey]

Ive just been reading a thread on smacking children, and I am of the opinion that smacking anyone - adult or child - is wrong.

However, there is a "game" I have sometimes played with my 16 month old, where I bend her over and mockingly shout "bad baby bad baby!" while mockly smacking her on her bumbum (playfully and over nappies and clothes.)

On the plus side, the baby finds it hilarious, so do I and she's even started copying and smacking herself, though playfully again.

On the other side, I dont want to think that hitting is acceptable, or that she can do this to other people including children. She hasnt so far, but I dont want to set a precedent. I wonder if Im over thinking it and it is ok, as long as its playful?

Itd be good to hear what other people think of this. Thanks!

I speak from experience, others may differ but imho it isn't a good idea, when your dd has playmates and mimics this it can all end in tears because she won't differentiate between jokily smacking and a good hard biff.

Yes, you are probably right, I guess if you have to think about it, then maybe you shouldnt do it! It is funny though, but it might be a can of worms stored for later!

I often play the "bum drum" on my children. They don't go around smaking others. I think there is a big difference between hitting out in temper and playing with your children.

Isn't this just rough play? I do something similar with 22 mo DS but have never smacked him in anger and also hope i never would. We also tumble on top of each other (well, i pretend and he actually does) and tickle etc. I think they need to begin to differentiate between emotions, which includes the difference between playing and doing something in temper, so providing the game is accompanied by lots of giggles, smiles and silliness i don't see the harm. They will learn about boundaries in rough play as they get older and quickly realise what is too much. If you look at the animal world it's how all baby animals learn what is acceptable and what is not - by rolling on top of each other, pouncing on things, jumping etc. When they get snarled at by their parents or siblings they know they've taken things too far.

We've always played the 'free smacks' game with DSD2 since she was 4. She gets turned upside down and everyone in the room gets a 'free smack' (gently of course) of her bum. She's now 12 and has never hit another person in anger. In fact she's the sweetest girl i know and always loved rough play. We also do the same with my niece.

Now you're making it sound as if its a good thing and no harm will be done! Thats positive, because I do like doing it. I play the bum drum/back drum game, this one is a bit different where Im pretending to smack her and saying "bad baby! bad baby!" again mockingly.

I guess I dont want to blur the boundaries so that she thinks being a bad baby is a good thing. The free smacks game is a good one. I was reading that games like this can develop a childs confidence, because it lets them be in control when normally they have to do as they are told, they are the ones being told off etc.

There is another "game" where I will pretend to hand my daughter a book, or ball or something. She attempts to take it, but I pull it away and go haha! or something like that. I do it about 2 or 3 times and then let her take it (ie grab it and pull it off me), to which she then feels like she has been successful. I was hoping this would teach her to keep trying. But now my daughter is doing the same to me eg handing me a ball but taking it away and saying "haaaa!" Again I dont know if this is a bad habit, esp when she plays with peers etc!

I know it's a game, but I'm more concerned about the "Bad baby, bad baby". Maybe as a therapist I read too much into things, but there is an insidious labelling to this statement, no matter how playful or well-meaning it is. Why is she bad, after all? (And you may well tell me she isn't; so why say it to her?)

It feels like there is an unconscious need to punish in both games. I would be aware of my own feelings when you do this, OP.

I think it just sounds really weird to 'pretend' your baby is a bad baby. Kids don't understand this kind of 'joke' so once the words are understood I think she'll just get muddled up.

Also be very wary of the second 'teasing' game - there is a 3yo locally whose dad did similar and she is a nightmare - she does this to all the other kids and makes them cry. She basically offers a toy, then takes it away. All the other kids have been taught to share normally i.e. if you offer something, you are saying the other person can have it. So everyone else cries and no one wants to invite this child to stuff. I am being deadly serious - do not teach your child to 'tease' as it will come back to bite her at some stage. This child is really struggling socially at preschool and it is entirely down to her parents teaching her to tease.

Conflugenglugen - I agree that it is labelling her and its something I would like to avoid, because she isnt actually a bad baby, she is actually very good and extremelly playful! I guess Im saying bad baby, because its playfully smacking and when you smack someone, its usually because they are bad or naughty. I guess I could say "good baby! good baby!" instead. Thanks for that, I will incorporate that into my play, unless someone else points out that playfully smacking is not right, which Im willing to also concede!

The 2nd game isnt to punish, like I said, its for her to keep trying and eventually succeed in getting something. My own feelings for this are playfull. A bit like holding out your hand to shake someone elses hand, and then taking it away and saying nananana instead. Yes very childish! Hope that explains why the 2nd game isnt to punish! I think I read about this in the book "Playful Parenting".

littlebluechair - I will agree to agree about the bad baby game, and change the words to good baby! I also believe your story, and it is food for thought. I wouldnt want my little one struggling socially and being ostracised (spelling!)

It is a shame that playing with your baby can be a bit of a minefield but better to stop these now than be a problem later!

I really think you are reading too much into this, I think there are many things parents do with their children that when put down in writing sound awfull or weird but actually in the situation where they are having fun and laughing will do no harm.
I often tell my two they have no brain. Sometimes for no reason and sometimes for a silly mistake, they will not grow up to think they have no brain.
Sometimes when we are sat on the sofa I will push them so they fall to the side, they think its very funny but they don't go around pushing people. I think children do have a bit more intelligence to know what it acceptable in different situations than we give them credit for.

"I often tell my two they have no brain. Sometimes for no reason and sometimes for a silly mistake, they will not grow up to think they have no brain."

Then I would echo my sentiments about zippey's OP, Housework. There is something else going on other than a joke; I'm standing by my words wholeheartedly.

zippey - I really do understand what you mean, and I don't in the least bit think you're doing it with any malicious intent. We all have an inbuilt 'adult' that, in many ways, we have inherited from our own parents, authority figures, etc. -- and often we fail to question just how much our actions come from them and not necessarily from the real 'you' - no matter who you are. My first reaction to any kind of 'bad girl/boy' play (albeit innocent and well-intentioned consciously) is that this is the Superego at play - and it can be quite punitive but without questioning why (because we are often asked not to question our elders).

So, really, it's nothing to beat yourself up about (no pun intended!); it's just that sometimes it pays to ask ourselves a) why we do some things, and b) whether we feel the same way about ourselves in our quieter and more vulnerable moments.

There is nothing else going on apart from a joke I'm afraid. I have two bright daughters who get praised for their hard work and when they do something well. They know I am seriouse when I do this.
When I joke around and we laugh together they know that is a joke. They are not stupid.

My whole point was that when something's we do are put down in writing they sound awful. (which in this case is true) but in reality they are harmless.

Very interesting and Im glad of getting different polarised views. I can see why someone might be worried about the no brain issue, but then I can see it being hilarious if said in a jokey fashion. To carry on with the brain them I will sometimes pretend I am a zombie and say "Brains I need to eat my babies brains". I say this in a mock zombie voice ala Return of the Living Dead and dont really mean to eat my childs brain of course.

I guess this is what makes parenting so hard - we will say that we will do a better job than our parents, but in reality we do a different job. There are certain ground rules of course. But all that stuff in between is open for debate. Harsh, lenient, playful, risky, serious, cautious, there is no right or wrong answer because a lot of it depends on your child themselves.

I still stand by my words, Housework.

"I guess this is what makes parenting so hard - we will say that we will do a better job than our parents, but in reality we do a different job."

Ain't that the truth, zippey! :)

Hang on... So you think by having a joke with my children I am in some way subconsciously punishing them? That I actually deep down think they are actually stupid or something? Really?
And you know this from a single sentence on a forum?

"Maybe as a therapist I read too much into things"

I would say so...

I guess when they were babies and I pretended that their feet were smelly sniffing them and saying "phew stinky feet" that I was deep down discussed with them? Or when we played shops and pretending they were shop keepers I am in someway modelling their future careers?

I would say that there is a difference between playing shop and pointing out an accepted physical phenomenon (i.e. that feet smell) -- and joking that your child has no brain. The latter is the superego at play. So, yes, I still stand by my comments.

See I would argue that if anything would be picked up on by the child and develop into a paranoia it would be smelly feet rather than no brain. Because it is actually possible to have smelly feet where as it is impossible to have no brain and be alive.
Most children do not believe you when you say you can see in one ear and out the other and would laugh because it is a "silly" thing to say. The same as my children know they have a brain (they are actually quite interested in the human body) so when I tell them there isn't one they find it amusing and think mummy is being silly.
In the same way that when I tell them I have two brains because I am extra clever they do not believe that either.
I really think your "diagnoses" is a bit of a leap considering you have never met me or my children or seen us interact.

I also don't really rate frauds simplistic view of people and the way their mind works, I have done a lot of study, mainly relating to child development and criminal behavour. And there is a lot more complexity to the way we develop than even we can understand.

My eldest child also has taken part in a few psychological resource studies, one of which was looking at tone of voice. The result of this study showed that at a young age children recognise and respond to the tone in which something is said before the actual words. (the study was done with nonsense words in different tones and the children responded as you would expect them to if they were the correct words)
So I would say that the tone of the play matters a lot and children understand when something is a joke and not to be taken seriously.

Have you ever thought that maybe as a therapist and dealing with people who have personal issues that stem from something in the past you may then start to look at everything as a potential damaging act?

"Have you ever thought that maybe as a therapist and dealing with people who have personal issues that stem from something in the past you may then start to look at everything as a potential damaging act?"

I have, House, yes, and it has influenced how I see things a great deal. Not that there is something hiding behind every rock, I agree.

However, I would never joke about my son's feet nor would I make a lighthearted comment that he has no brain. If that makes me hypersensitive, then so be it.

I have witnessed too much (self)-harm masquerading as humour to be able to gloss over it even down to the "stupid me" comments that we often chuck at ourselves unthinkingly when we've done something wrong. An extreme view, perhaps, but it is that slow erosion of self that can sometimes wreak long-term damage; a jokey war of attrition on esteem that is so rife that we have forgotten to question it until, perhaps, it is chucked at us by the mouths of an abusive partner who is only stepping up the volume on something we have been telling ourselves for years.

conflugen Apols OP for thread hijack but do you think all jokes about a child are potentially harmful, and until what age? I just wonder because it is such a common thing to do amongst friends, colleagues, partners, family members.

I am really interested in this, I have a book 'The elephant and the bad baby' and I have never read the word 'bad' out, I just would hate my son to even think there could be such a thing as a 'bad' baby.

I had parents who 'joked' about many things to do with me, my dad is a big joker, the dry sarcastic type and I almost can't bear to be around him these days, he is so sarky about the kids.

Again - apologies OP - but I am interested in this whole topic!

I don't think all jokes are harmful, but I think it might behoove us to be provoked into thought in these kinds of situations and not simply to pass over accepted forms of behaviour simply because they're entrenched familially, culturally and socially.

I would do the same thing as you do and not read out 'bad' - because it just feels wrong. That's a very personal viewpoint, but it is borne out by my training time and again. In the same way, I point-blank refuse to buy those apparently cute tee shirts that would proclaim that my son is a "Little Monster" or "Here Comes Trouble".

House is right: my profession and my background overlap. I was brought up in a subtly abusive household where sarky and humorous comments held a boatload of malice and projected contempt. I didn't think to question it for one moment until I found myself in an abusive situation and I had no idea how I had got there. What you say about your father feels all too familiar.

So, yes, I have direct experience, and it has definitely shaped how I see things. That doesn't mean that what I see isn't valid. I think we are conditioned by society as a whole not to question things too much. The Feminism section is testament to the fact that something that was widely deemed acceptable and went unchallenged for centuries misogyny in all its guises is now quickly becoming subject to all kinds of challenges, and rightly so.

Abuse is prevalent too -- just look at the Relationships section here on MN. Maybe we should be looking at the finer end of the abuse wedge to find out where it starts.

Sorry for your experiences.
I can understand how being told something again and again can make you feel/act that way. I also understand that your patents relationship with each other and with you can affect your view of what normal is. And this in turn can place you in situations that are not good.

I am very carefull not to label my children. When they misbehave I would not tell them they are naughty I would say their behavour was naughty/rude/unkind. I have never told them they are bad or stupid when dealing with them seriously. They get plenty of praise, they are talked to respectfully and listened to. (of course they have to be told of sometimes but this is not done with any sort of humiliation or belittling)

But we do like to have a joke. There is no malice to what I am saying to them, I have no contempt towards them so it is completely different from your experiences. I know my children, I spend every day with them and really enjoy their company. I used the "no brain" thing as just an example. But as I have said my children know it is impossible to have no brain the same way they know I really didn't take their nose :)

I can see your point and with your own past experiences and job it probably makes you question things a lot more than others. But I also think that within a loving and nurchering home a bit of joking around is fine.

I would be concerned that your daughter may be witnessed in a play setting (toddler group, nursery) hitting a doll whilst saying "bad baby, bad baby". If I saw a child doing this I would definitely think there may be a problem and would probably report it.

Housework

"I can see your point and with your own past experiences and job it probably makes you question things a lot more than others. But I also think that within a loving and nurchering home a bit of joking around is fine."

Agreed on both points. In my line of work, it is dysfunction that is more prevalent and so you become fine-tuned to it. But, yes, there is a place for joking that comes without the sting in the tail, which seems obvious from the examples you give from your experience at home.