any ideas for a 4yr old's bedtime? Helping him to let (me!) go...

[averagemum]

My 4yr old is very happy through bedtime, same routine for years now, all the way up til the final moment of saying goodnight. It's not desperately awful, as he does finally concede to go to sleep after about 15 minutes of faffing and shouting for me but it's really getting me down, as I find myself getting cross with him nearly every night. I realise I probably make it worse because I'm tired and am anxious want to start my - very short! - evening and don't want him to wake his 5 month old brother - I'm sure he senses this. But it basically comes down to him not being able to let go and say goodnight without first shouting for me to come back in over and over again, for the smallest reasons. He almost always ends up by saying he wants me to stay with him all night long. My sense is that he's not scared or worried - this started way before his brother was born, before I was pregnant even - but that he likes to control the situation, and be in control of when I close it down and say: that's it, enough! I also don't help by making loads of empty threats that I don't follow through on... I feel like we're locked into something that I can't see my way out of. I would love nothing more than to be able to give him a calm kiss and a cuddle and leave. He doesn't do it to nearly the same extent with my DH, who does bedtime less often and is probably less rushed as a result. Any ideas? Even just hearing about how other 4 year olds handle this moment would be helpful - thank you!

How about letting him look at a few books before he goes to sleep?
Explaining that now he his a big boy he will be allowed his light on for half an hour.
My daughter (nearly 6) has had books at bed time for a couple of years now and most of the time is asleep when I go and turn her light off. And if you do have any nonsense it is something you can use as a reward/punishment so if he calls you or gets out of bed the light gets turned out. Or if he playes up after lights out he will not be allowd the light on the next day.

He does look at his books (with his torch) while I tidy up downstairs, but what I've been doing is going back in after 10-15 minutes to say goodnight and lights out now, which is when the problems start. He never gets out of bed, just shouts! Maybe I should just leave him to switch his torch off / fall asleep by himself? I suppose I'm worried that might extend bedtime even further... Your thoughts so appreciated! Might not be able to check back again tonight but will tomorrow.

I was reading about a method the other day where you put them in bed, do the stories, then say "I'm just going to put the washing in the machine (or some other quick task), I'll be back in a minute or two, you can stay awake til I'm back". Basically keep doing this, giving them 'permission' to stay awake, and eventually(!) they will have dropped off before you get back from one of the tasks. No idea if it works in reality. I stick to either cuddling to sleep still or yelling "Go to sleep or I'll put you in the shed". Not perfect parenting by any means, but hey, you do what you've gotta do!

What worked for me is this. Previously I used to have to stay with my DD1 (now 4) until she fed to sleep, then I used to ask her to roll over and go to sleep which she would but if I tried to leave before she was properly asleep, she would grab me and say mummy stay with me. It ended up in a situation where she almost dared not fall asleep for fear that I would leave.

I turned this around about a year ago when I was finding it impossible to put her to bed and deal with a 6 month old. I started to say go to sleep now and I'll check on you in 3/4/5 minutes. I let DD1 decide how many minutes and then I get up and go.

Because she knows I'm going to come back she allows herself to fall asleep. I usually head downstairs or in another room and it is usually quiet within 5 minutes.

I have the same with DD1 (5). I just try and relax and give her about 5 minutes of cuddle and chat, then tell her I have to go downstairs and cook tea fr me and daddy. She always calls me back and says she has to tell me something, then can't actually think of anything to say (grrr). Then she says that she wants me to stay with her forever, and that she's going to cry all night, sometimes accompanied with "don't do

I give her another kiss, tell her i'm going and leave. I never ever go back in the room (DH does sometimes but that's up to him, the important thing is she knows I'm not going back). She only ever moans for a couple of minutes and I can't really hear her from the living room. Also I tell her to be quiet as I don't want her to wake up DD2, when we're having our cuddle and chat we whisper so it's kind of in her head.

Sorry I'm not sure how much help that was, I don't have any answers other than what you're already doing really. Will keep an eye on this thread with interest...

Reward chart?

Or stay with him until he falls asleep, but be really strict about any conversation attempts or fidgeting if you think it means he's not relaxing (DS does this anyway...) - the nice thing about being close is you can say calmly/quietly "Sssh now, it's time to sleep" or "No more talking" or "If you make any noise or move I'm going to count to 3 and if I get to 3 then I'll go downstairs"

Or mostly I do the make an excuse and then be gone for ages thing. Right now I'm "looking for a toy". Often I have a sudden mysterious need for the toilet. If he's tired he's asleep within minutes, but you might want to choose something longer if you think he will wait a while, or build up his sense of security about you being there by sitting in with him for a few nights first.

DS never seems scared or worried either but I think they just like to know that we're close. They're only little still and I think it's natural not to want to sleep alone, even though it's more convenient for us if they can do it!

It's a relief to know it's not just me! Thank you. Yep, that Mum, just want to tell you ONE LAST THING is a classic, and is always an impossible to answer question (tonight it was: Are crocodiles naughty or nice?). It makes me smile now but when I'm in it it's so frustrating! The checking back in thing is interesting - he's happy to read his book with a torch for ages because he's knows I'm coming back, it's at the final stages that I get the I want you to sleep with me ALL NIGHT LONG forever and ever and ever...

Could you give him one of your t-shirts (worn by you, and with your perfume on to smel like you) to "look after" all night?

Tell him you will check on him 10/20/30 times etc - and actually do it (until he is asleep of course) but hat he has to stay in bed and have the light off whilst you do your chores in between checking on him. You might have to check on him one million times for the first few nights, but once he realises you will do as you promise/as he asks, he will relax and drift off. Dd probably only needs at most 3 checks and she is asleep.

If you think it's all about control for him why not ask him to tell you when you can go downstairs?

My dd used to be very clingy at bedtime too and one might I got really cheesed off with it all and said 'you tell me when I can leave' anyway I sat there stroking her hand and after about 2 minutes I asked her if I could leave, and she said yes so I gave her a quick kiss, said goodnight and I'd see her in the morning - I did this two nights running, and now and again, but most nights she's happy now just to be left.

My 4 year old dd exactly the same. She goes through phases when she is better or worse and I try different things which work for a while. At the moment she wants the cat to sleep on the end of her bed which seems to help! We are also doing a reward chart. I had never really thought of it before as a control thing.

I completely identify with the frustration OP, and then the guilt because you've become irritable.

Ahhteteley, that sounds a good idea to me. I think I'll try that.

Having been in almost the same situation as you with DS (although he was 3.5), I did a combination of two suggestions given above - the random "I'm just going to do xyz" and "I'll come up and check on you in 3/4/5 minutes". I have to say, a combination of these 2 worked really well for us.

I used to say "I'm just going downstairs to check the washing machine is finished/change a lightbulb/let the cat out and I'll come and check on you in 5 minutes." (I found that very random things were better otherwise he offered to help!). This let DS give me permission to leave the room, and the reassurance that I'd come back to check on him. He did have to repeat to me "you'll check on me in 5 minutes mummy" and I would agree - and I did check on him, by which point he was usually asleep. If he wasn't asleep I would come into his room, pat him, tell him I was just tidying up and would check on him in another 5 minutes... you get the idea.

Anyway, it worked. He's 4 now, and occasionally asks me to come back and check on him and I always say "ok, in 5 minutes" he then rolls over and goes to sleep immediately!

I gave ds a digital watch and told him if he wanted to ask/tell me anything he had to do it before 7.30 because that is bedtime and after that I will be busy and he will be sleeping. He then proceeded to tell me the fecking time every minute from about 7 but he did go to bed at 7.30 and stay there :o

Thank you so much for all these suggestions - really, really helpful. In the night I did think up maybe letting him read by himself until he sees a big 7 on his clock (it wouldn't matter if he didn't notice immediately), at which point he can turn his torch off by himself (releasing us from the battle of me getting him to switch it off), and call for me when he's ready to say goodnight. But the idea of letting him decide might well be a genius, call-his-bluff magic solution. OR a nightmare if I'm still in there at midnight! I do need to try something, though. The checking thing sounds very sensible - I just wonder if he would relax and go to sleep in between checks? I'll just have to try I guess...

Singingsands - I think I too would have to be careful about what jobs I said I was going to do! Changing a lightbulb would sound like brilliant fun to him!