ds is 12 weeks old and either wakes up at 3am or 5am everynight wanting to get up for the day and I'm so fucked off!! :( feeling really angry and I know ds can't help it :(

[Fairylea]

I'm sitting here having been up since 5am and I'm seething with inner rage. Which I know is ridiculous as ds is 12 weeks old but I'm so pissed off.

Ds is my second baby. Dd is now 9 years old and she slept through from about 9 weeks. I (mistakenly perhaps) attributed that to me following bloody Gina Ford but after attempting it with ds and him basically sticking two fingers up to it I now realise dd was just a good sleeper. So this not sleeping stuff is absolutely killing me. What makes it almost worse is that compared to other peoples babies ds isn't too bad but I'm getting seriously depressed about never having a proper nights sleep. I'm an 8-10 hour person and I'm very fed up :(

Ds is formula fed. He is about 18lbs so a good weight and he is drinking 7oz bottles of sma gold (the only one that suits him) 6-7 times a day. He has two short naps of about 40 minutes during the day - one about 9ish /10ish and one about 3. He is a very alert and active baby and will happily lie on the baby gym mat and look at toys / kick / smile for ages, he does not like going in a sling and if I take him out in the car / buggy he thinks its all very exciting and won't sleep. Fine, I'd rather him not sleep during the day anyway BUT he isn't sleeping at night either (well not all night).

We have got a good bedtime routine going - he is in his own cot in his own room as ds and I are noisy and were waking him up - we have a baby monitor etc. He goes to bed after a bath about 7pm and has a last bottle in his room with the room dark, no talking etc. We put him down, if he fidgets we pick him up again and rock him a bit till he's drowsy (repeat maybe 3 times) and he'll fall asleep. All good - he will sleep till 3am usually.

The 3am one is the one that is killing me. I should think ds must be tired, sometmes he looks tired but he wakes shouting (not really crying but more of a "ahhh!" Type shout). So I pick him up, feed him and by the end of the bottle he seems sleepy so I put him down. Great! ... But by the time I get back to my own bed he's awake again - wide awake like its morning?!!!!!

So I then spend about an hour going back and forth rocking him, putting a dummy in (I am worried we're going to get to a point where he wakes looking for a dummy so I do try and settle him without it at first!) And generally faffing about. Sometimes he takes an hour and a half to go back to sleep which makes me feel really annoyed as its like I might as well of just got him up as he'd prob want a nap an hour and a half later anyway - ie he is just sleeping because he's got tired from being awake not because he knows its night!

Today he slept through till 4.45am but after trying to settle him for an hour I just got annoyed and decided to get up for the day. He's now under the play mat again he was starting to get upset with me trying to put him back to bed as he just wasn't tired in the slightest.

I just feel utterly fed up. When is he going to sleep through. I know some would say "oh he's only little / co sleep (I don't want to do this - I would not be able to sleep, I can barely sleep with dh next to me) ". But I'm seriously just fed up with the lack of sleep now.

My dh does help sometimes when he's not got a long day at work (works with aachinery so has to be careful) so its not more help I need I just need to know if anyone has any advice to stop this early morning "cooo eee its daytime!!" Shit ! :(

I know I sound very angry. I'm not angry at ds - I'm just angry with being so fucking tired.

Thanks. I'm feeling a bit more human now. I think waking up at 4am is enough to make anyone capable of seeing red! :)

I'm going to try some of the tips today, thanks very much. And my heart goes out to those with very unsleepy babies!! Ds woke every hour for the first 3 weeks so this is a big improvement... I know how tough it is. I think I feel exasperated as it IS such a big improvement but now we've hit a brick wall!

Juneau - thanks but iif I did that (and believe me I've tried) then I could literally be there going in and out etc all day with ds thinking it was very amusing and smiling his head off at mummys "new game"! I first realised gina ford was a lot of old crap when I tried the routines on him and everything was going well till nap time - I put him down and he wasn't upset but sod it if he was going to sleep - whatever I did he missed the whole 2 hour nap time and then stayed awake (with feeds etc inbetween) till bedtime t 6pm!!!! (6 hours awake)!!!

TBH I didn't have to Ferberize DS2 because I'd got him into the habit of self-settling from birth. I did it with DS1 from about 6 months old, but for naps I reckon it could be used younger, if needed, to establish a good routine. I don't like leaving a baby to scream, so I think it's a more gentle method than CIO. Some babies are very resistant to sleep though - they fight it - and ultimately it does neither baby nor parent any good if the baby isn't getting enough sleep, so IMO (and I realise it isn't everyone's cup of tea), it's worth persevering in the early days to create a good sleeper. Obviously, at night at 12 weeks you would expect a baby to wake to be fed at least once and possibly twice (around 10 or 11pm and 2 or 3am). I'd use the same method to get them back to sleep again, if needed.

So, OP, if that doesn't work can you just put him in his cot for some quiet time? Eventually, if he gets the idea that at that time you'll just put him down, he might start falling asleep.

Thanks juneau - that's more or less what I do for naps (or what should be naps) so I can at least have a shower etc! The difficulty is the 3am thing when he's so nosiy grunting cooing etc that I couldn't go back to sleep unless I turned off the monitor - obviously not an option.

I have a nightmare baby I think. Sent to pay me back after dd was so good! :)

Is he swaddled. Ds was a terrible sleeper and hated being swaddled as a newborn. I tried again in desperation at 11 weeks and he slept for 12 hours! I cried I was so relieved.

Now he's 24 weeks and starting to struggle against it but I've had 3 months to recharge my batteries.

After his 3am bottle, have you tried holding him for 10 mins to make sure he's really asleep? Worth a shot.

I also wouldn't get too hung up on a routine as such because he'll hit the 4-5 month regression where sleep patterns change. (Marc weissbluth's book is good at explaining the change). Once that passes then a more fixed routine can emerge otherwise you'll just be running against the tide.

Also many babies who are bad sleepers are so because of medical reasons be it reflux, intolerances etc. that's why I asked about formula and whether he was windy or sicky or ever in discomfort.

Maybe some extra nap/s in the day. I am a firm believer in a good sleep during the day = good sleep at night. Try to aim for 3ish hours of naps during the day. Certainly worked for my DD. As soon as we got the day time naps sortedshe slept much better at night. Hard if ge doesn't sleep in his buggy. I found DD would only sleep in buggy if I kept walking and didn't go into any shops etc. Good excruciating for me too!!

Is he well winded after his 3am bottle? Sudden waking after you put him back down might be wind. Hard when winding can wake them up but might be an idea.

And so you change him after the 3am feed? Try not to. Just slather on some bepanthen or other nappy cream before bed time and it's a great barrier to stopping them feeling wet and grumpy.

Otherwise, yes... They'll grow put of it. Eventually!!

My DS was a similar sort of sleeper, and at nearly 2 he still regularly wakes up for the day at 5:30 (yawwwwn). We tried endless things to improve his sleeping and it did get better in the sense that he has one nice long nap during the day (usually about 2 hours) and goes to bed between 7 and 8 every evening with no fuss.

The only thing that improved it for us was changing our attitude. We had to accept that DS wasn't a good sleeper and that we had done what we could to improve it. We had to stop counting the hours of sleep or seeing getting up at 4 in the morning (DS did this for months and months) as a punishment and just as a fact of life. We worked our lives around it and supported each other as best we could.

DS is still an early riser as I said but it doesn't bother us. We're used to it and ok with it. That said, we share getting up evenly so that makes it much much easier. I know you say your DH has a shift job that requires mental sharpness, but when you think about it plenty of workers only get 6 hours sleep a night and are fine. You are clearly, understandably, worn out from the situation and it is starting to affect how you see your little boy. There must be at least three times in the week, shifts allowing, that your DH can take over, if only for a few hours in the afternoon so you can get a nap. Does he ever get up with your DS?

Your DS sounds exactly like mine was at this age. I ended up just getting up with him at 5 (I would try my hardest to get him back to sleep between 3-5 but if he woke up at 4:45, for example, I'd just think 'fuck it' and get up). I hated it, it made me miserable, I am not a morning person and I was so so tired - but he gradually started to sleep longer, he gradually stopped wanting a 3am feed, he gradually slept until 6...

I think he was probably about 9mo by the time he'd sleep until 6 and by that stage he'd stopped wanting night feeds too, so it was all good. This will stop. I agree about not changing at night, I was doing this until someone suggested it was taking him from drowsy to wide awake and it did make a difference.

The other thing DS refused to do was nap for any length of time at all during the day. His record for being awake was 13 hours and that was when he was 4 months. But again, that's changed as he's gotten older. Now at 18mo he has a hour and a half nap every morning which makes the world of difference to me, and sleeps through. I agree that better naps in the day = better sleep at night, but if they don't want to nap at this stage, there's nothing you can do about it.

Keep smiling, it won't last forever.

Could you just turn the monitor down so you'll hear him if he cries, but not if he's just grunting, cooing and shuffling around? Some babies are noisy sleepers and/or take a while to resettle themselves, but there is no reason why it has to disturb you in another room.

Have you tried wake-to-sleep? I've not done it but my friends who have swear by it. If your dc is waking at the same time every night then you set your alarm half an hour before and go in and gently rouse them so they just wriggle a bit. The theory is you just move them into the next sleep cycle and they should sleep through their usual waking time. It's about breaking that habit of waking at that time. But tbh he's still small and prob needs the feed. Might be something to try at 6mo if (god forbid) you are still in the same situation.

Agree with others re dream feed. But 12 wks is still young to expect them to sleep through. It got mine through til 3ish so I only had to do one feed a night rather than two. I managed to stop night feeding at 6mo but no chance before then.

You say "you don't think he will...." but to be honest what have you got to lose by trying?

He needs to sleep more in the day. Your husband should sleep in the baby's room if he can't learn to come in quietly and have the baby in with you. It will definitely help ime.

No sleep is the absolute worst but if im honest your expectations are too high!My dd is 2 and still doesnt sleep through! once or twice a night i have to give her a little comforts pat her, kiss and tuck her kn. It takes seconds so not a big deal but honestly its them wanting the reassurance that you are there and comfort from you.

I think being overtired is the big issue with your DS you need to find a way to get him to sleep and use that method for a morning nap, afternoon nap and bedtime. my dd loved sleeping on me and in a sling so i would just do that then pop her in cot of we were home. She soon grew out of it at the right age.

Tbh as well have you though that your ds may br picking up on your mood and that is why he isnt going back to sleep. I knowits hard but if you are anxious around sleep time and stresses he will pick up on it so easily and babies need to feel calm and secure to sleep soundly and so you need to try your hardestbto feel calm about the situatoon and you may see a big change.

Got to say though 12 weeks is so young you are lucky with what you are getting and he will also just want to be near you. Very young fir his own room. why not put him jn with you and try the white noise app? also ds will prob get used to dad coming in given time and sleep through it, prob helo if youb agreed with dh to be very quiet when he comes in and not talk to each other or react loudly if ds does wake up asbthis will disturb him more.

I haven't read all of the posts so I don't know if anyone has already said this...

My DD is 15 weeks. She feeds at 7:30pm, then goes to sleep, then we 'dream feed' her at 11pm before we go to bed. She usually finishes her bottle and stays asleep. She was sleeping through until 7am, but the past week it's been 5am. She isn't hungry, and she's still tired. My Mum suggested giving her a tiny bit of cooled boiled water at that point if she wakes up because with the muggy nights she might be a little thirsty. It seems to be working, and she'll nod back off until 7-7:30 am, then wake up for her feed.

She naps at about 10am and settles herself at that time. After her lunchtime feed I take her upstairs and put her in her crib and as awful as it was at first, I let her cry herself to sleep. She doesn't get upset everyday.. just sometimes if she's not quite sleepy enough. Getting her into the routine has been good for her though, and she is so much happier during her awake times because she isn't getting overtired.

All babies are different though. Plus this is my first so I feel pretty clueless about it all myself. I guess it's all trial and error really :)

Sorry - 3rd post from me. Keep thinking of other things.

Try looking up '4 month sleep regression'. Someone else on MN mentioned this to me a while ago. There's also one at around 9mo too. Oh the joy!! And usually somewhere in between there's teething!!!

My DD is an early riser - 5:30am - which works great during the week in terms of me going to work (she's 10.5mo now and been back at work a dew weeks) but it'd be nice if she grasped the concept of a lie-in at weekends!!! Even just til 7am would be good for us. Wishful thinking...

www.parenting.com/article/the-truth-about-ferberizing

interesting article here by Richard Ferber saying that experts now think that babies often need much less sleep than previously thought - ie. a baby who wakes at 5am may have had their quota of sleep for the night and that is that. Why not try a later bedtime? my own 4month ds is happy going to bed around 830 - in europe (spain etc) they dont have this 7pm bedtime thing that we are obsessed with here.

From my own experience babies find it harder to settle after 4/5am - it's closer to morning they have had a lot of sleep, they are more awake.

For me, I would find a way to bring him into bed with you then, or get your partner to do a couple of weeks in the babies room while you co sleep or at least have the cot in your room and get a bit more rest.

I really disagree with the people saying he is overtired..that is such wishful thinking! babies are like adults, some need less sleep than others, I think our culture is obsessed with babies having X amount of sleep - which fits the same pattern for each baby. not true...

Previous poster - this baby wakes at 3am and is sleepy after a feed until OP tries to put her down. That's different to waking at 5am for the day.

That article also mentions gastro issues and anxiety for wakings too and that we have unrealistic expectations are babies' night sleep.

This may only be for the desperate, and my DD was a hardcore non-sleeper (SN) but when she woke with a look that said "Morning!!!!!!!" at 3am, I ended up putting her in a bouncy chair next to the bed, an activity arch over the top, and went back to bed to doze. It's not quality sleep, but it felt a little more human to be able to have my head on a pillow.

Put her to bed later

Go to bed earlier

My dd woke every two to three hours until she was nearly 18 months. As far as I am concerned your baby is sleeping well!

Your DS is doing a brilliant stretch of sleep! You need to get yourself off to bed at 7pm too for a while until he's sleeping through. It's what I had to do, otherwise I was just a total wreck being sleep deprived. Impossible to function when you've got other children to look after each day. it's only a short term measure.

Similar situation here. 18 week old DD slept from 7pm until 6am every night without fail from 8 weeks old. Then all of a sudden get sleeping pattern changed at about 13/14 weeks. She now wakes up 3-4 times a night and often gets up for the day at 5am. When she wakes its not for food it's for comfort.

The only advice I can really give you is to just hang in there. When DD started waking up again I got really angry and irritated as being a first time mum I just assumed that when she started sleeping through it would stay that way! So I had a bit of a shock! However I've calmed down now and kinda got used to it after all I know it's not DD doing it on purpose and this is my job

I have to say I've been going to bed at about 8-9pm each night just so I can get a good stretch of sleep in. DP isn't happy about this but I've reassured him that it won't be forever just for a while. I know you're reluctant to go to bed earlier but you really will notice the difference.

Hang on in there, just remember it won't last forever

Just an example of last night. DD was up at 3am, 3:30am, 4am, 4:30am and then finally got up for the day at 5am. But as I went to bed at 9pm it meant I got a good 6 hours sleep in one stretch

Ds got up at 5am for years, sorry. Just have to go to bed early. It's a killer!

Thanks but 9.30 / 10 is the earliest I can go to bed as dh doesn't get home till 11pm and I have dd age 9 to get ready for school the next day, feed and put to bed. Then I have to do bottles etc. I'm not making excuses. I genuinely just cannot manage to get to bed before then. It would be very different if ds was an only child or dd was younger and had the same bedtime as him but at 9 years old I can't expect her to go to bed before 8 really. I also need to spend quality time with her otherwise I am just spending all my energy on ds which isn't fair when you have an older child.

I tried the white noise last night and he did settle a little quick (he was up from 3-4.30am and then up for the day at 5.45 so I will try that again tonight and see if I can get him to recognise it means sleep.

Thanks for the replies.

The only way round it is getting to bed early. There's no easy fix. I hated going to bed early but had to force myself otherwise I'd be unfit to look after my two DC due to extreme tiredness the following day. It is a phase and it does pass (most of the time!).

What about pushing your DD bedtime forward to 8pm where she can lie in bed listening to story CD or reading a book of her own?