Cultural differences in childcare - some strange/funny observations from Scandinavia

[kitegirl]

My sister was visiting from Finland with her dd, 14 months. I'm amazed how differently they do things, I didn't think the culturally we are that far apart (I am Finnish but have had my ds in England and lived here for 12 years)

• She gives her dd skimmed milk - apparently this is the advice they are given. Only if the baby is considered failing to thrive will she be given full fat milk.

• Babies nap outside in prams, whatever the weather, 'to get fresh air'.

• She was adviced that it would be harmful for the baby's development to try get her into a routine before 6 months.

• Babies are given Vitamin D drops from birth, including breast-fed babies.

• Her dd still wakes up twice a night, gets up at 6am, and my sister thinks nothing of it. To her is perfectly normal. It wouldn't occur to her to try get her to sleep through. None of her friends have consciously tried to get their babies to sleep through either, if they do - great, if not - well, 'that's the way babies are'.

The skimmed milk issue aside, do you think this last point is a) nuts or b) the key to stress-free parenting with a baby/toddler? That if you give up being obsessed with sleeping through, and just accept the baby's natural sleep rythm, you are less frustrated if they don't? I have noticed that none of my Finnish relatives have enquired about my ds's sleep patterns, whereas my MIL was asking at 3 moths whether he was sleeping through the night. Anyone have any experiences from other countries?

spelling is pants today thanks to an early waking toddler..

To be honest i think theres a lot in the last point. I can only go on my 3 and my friends children, but very very few were in a routine before 6 months and it was just torture watching pple trying to get them in one........it wasn't for me anyhow. The lack of sleep didn't really bother me, though can see how it would for others. They all got there in the end.

I think it is desperately normal to have a child who wakes in the night, and those that sleep are the exceptions and not the rule. Those that sleep from 6 weeks are fictitious. (That's what I started telling myself when dying of sleep-deprivation...)

It is one of my pet hates, being asked about sleeping patterns. As if a waking baby is a freak or we haven't been working hard enough on, well, something.

Agree. When I tell myself I'm not bothered about being woken, I'm not stressed.

The Vit D drops would make sense in view of lack of sunlight for about 6 months of the year. Or reduced sunlight, I should say.

I like the bits about no routine and not stressing about the sleeping thing.

With dd1 I got all worked up about the "has to fall asleep by herself" thing and felt fairly desperate about it and very, very tired.

With dd2 I co-slept and didn't bother to look at the time when she woke. Didn't feel stressed, didn't feel half as tired as I did with dd1.

scandinavian maternity/paternity leave is much more generous than in the UK so perhaps getting into a routine isn't so urgent if you don't need to go back to work/be alert

pruni,
both of mine slept through at 6 weeks

You are absolutely right. I also got so worked up with ds's 'routines' and sleep patterns, because I thought that's what was expected (bloody Gina Fords, baby whisperers, MILs, overachieving friends). Having your baby sleep through as early as possible has become another achievement to tick off. With the next one (due August) I am not going to bother!

bundle, plus they just accept that you don't have a life anymore once you have had a baby. Everyone goes to bed at 9pm. No-one definitely goes out anymore. It's so much more child-centered than in the UK. I'm not sure if I could manage that though...

They give vit D in France too, and fluoride (which I do)

Our children aren't robots are they ? My ds has been a great sleeper from the word go. My dd 'slept through' from 5 (count 'em) weeks 'til 16 weeks then it all went tits up and she has been a bugger ever since...but I don't really care. I am tired, but i don't care. She is beautiful. I think we should take note of our Scandinavian neighbours methods and chill

cece-ds2 started doing midnight till 7am at 2 weeks! yes -2 weeks!

some babies and kids sleep well and some don't.

some are good eaters and some are picky buggers.

mine don't sleep well and pick at food, but they're gorgeous and I love them and that matters more than anything.

we need to give ourselves and our kiddies a break and try to enjoy each other.

I was living in Denmark when I had DS and the points you raised occured there too. No one gives a damm about routines and it results in very relaxed Mums and babies as far as I could tell. Vitamin D is very strongly advised, don't recall it being because of the light issue but that sounds sensible. The sleeping outside thing is so true - in nurseries the kids are well wrapped up, sort of cocooned and then all go outside in the prams and sleep like logs. Ds would only sleep outside in his pram during the day, I couldn't get him to sleep inside but it did mean me trudging around the local park in snow and sub-zero temperatures in the winter! Bundle is right about the maternity leave - I was off for one year and could have taken more if I wanted, paid for by the government, huge sums of money too - almost £8,000 p.a. equvalent to about 50% of your normal rate of pay. When the authorities discovered I should not have been paying taxes on this sum (I worked for the United Nations) they sent me a big tax refund cheque too! Don't know about Finland but Denmark is a fantastic country in which to have kids. And look at the size of the 'vikings' they produce - huge, healthy people!

Nah, cece, it's not true. You must have dreamt it.

i am amazed at how obsessed people are in the UK about getting babies to 'sleep through'. So many middle aged women (strangers) say, "oooh, she is so beautiful. is she a GOOD baby.' I'd smile sweetly and say, 'yesss'.

i'm also amazed at how obessed people are about routines and weaning at 4 months. I grew up in Latin American/Caribbean.

I know what people mean about being obsessed with getting babies to sleep through and when ds was waking 1-2 times a night (between 10pm and 5am) and getting up between 5-6am (which he still does most nights even at at 16 months) that was and is pretty much fine.

However when he spent 4 months waking 4-5 times a night (between 10pm and 5am) with at least one of the wake-ups lasting 1-2hrs and refusing to sleep more than 30 mins at a time during the day then no amount of 'chilling out' or 'relaxing' would have made it bearable - Sorry but I am close enough to remember the exhaustion and despair.

Although I think we do worry too much about sleep patterns in babies - I also find it intensely irritating when people told me to chill out and that 'this would get better' At the time I just wanted people to comiserate and give me suggestions on how to improve the situation - NOTE - I never expected him to sleep 7pm-7am or anything like that.

As for all the other stuff

Babies asleep in cold weather in prams - seems fine to me

Routine before 6 months - try if you like but a waste of time IMO. HOWEVER this does not mean that you are wasting your time with a routine after about 6 months as many babies need a bit of help at that point and do not 'just find their own routine'

Vitamin D drops - makes sense in a country that has so little light for half the year.

Skimmed milk - Well that is interesting - not sure about this as I don't have enough info about it. (Makes me feel a little better about giving ds skimmed milk on occasion when I don't have any full fat in the fridge)

I am currently going through what you describe happened to you lazycow. My dd has not slept well since Christmas, she wakes several times a night. It is a combination of teething, excema, and currently, a cold. Plus she is a baby of course ! I am exhausted. I don't know how I manage to get through the days sometimes. I find that trying to be 'chilled', relaxed or whatever, does help though. I don't panic if things don't get done - I try and rest as much as I can, knowing that there will be days when we can go out and do stuff and I will feel better. Yes, it does irritate me when others say 'it won't last', but they are right I guess. I think we get hung up on a whole load of issues about babies that are totally unnecessary - each one is different, and I think you just have to adapt as best you can to the baby that you get !

I've thought before that expecting your child to sleep through is just setting yourself up for a fall. At best, mine usually wakes once a night. At worst (growth spurts, teething) it's about five times. However, we either co-sleep, or she's in the bedside cot next to me, so disruption / awakeness is kept to a minimum. I was horrified recently to hear someone with a three month old talking about moving him into a separate bedroom and leaving him to 'cry it out' one night.

I also find it bizarre that a) not sleeping through around four months is seen as an indicator for solids and b) you're advised not to (breast)feed your child back to sleep, when this might be just the comforter they need when overwrought. I don't think one needs to worry that they'll become dependent on the breast - or that settling themselves is a skill they need to learn the minute they pop out of the womb.

As for daytime naps, I've not worried about these either - but once my daughter got to about four months and started to be more aware of her surroundings, she had more difficulty going off, so I've started putting her down in her cot in the day more. She can still drop off in the sling too though.

It also irritates when 'women of a certain age' come up to me and ask if my baby is 'good'. As if all disruption must be kept to a minimum and any deviation from this must be from evil intent and malice of forethought in the infant.