Sibling rows - how to handle the 'he snatched it from me' stuff

[SilveryMoon]

I have 2 ds's. They are 5yo and 3.6yo.
I'm sure that what happens here happens in everyone's house, just wondered how everyone deals with it.

My ds's argue over every little thing. Every toy, every dvd when I say they can watch tv, just everything.
For example, this morning they got the wooden train set out and then rowed and shouted at each other over one train (even though there must be about 12), but they don't even try to sort these things out themselves, straight away it's "Muuuuuuummmmmmm, he snatched it from me." "Muuuuuuummmmm, he won't give it back. I had it first" then comes all the fake crying shit and that horrible whinging.
Ds1 is at that "I won't be your best friend" stage so everytime he doesn't get the answer he wants he yells this and ds2 just screams, screeches or whinges and it drives me insane.
I really really really really can't stand that horrible whinging noise.
I'm stuck as to what to do to teach them how to handle these situations themselves. i really don't think I should be there all the time sorting it out for them should I?
I started taking stuff they were arguiing over away, but do I need to be making more of an effort to help them learn?

"Work out how to play nicely or I will take the train-set away and then no-one will have it"?

That's pretty much where I'm at Cogito just sometimes I wonder what I can do to help teach them more acceptable ways to deal with these situations. Hard isn't it?

I do what my mum did. They fight over a toy, I take it away. I don't care who had it first.

I do give it back if they start playing nicely, though. I'm not that mean!

'If you can't sort it out by yourselves the television goes off' works in our house; toys are slightly harder.
I find involving them in the solution rather than dictating helps: my line is usually:

'Right, DS1 has got the toy now. In a minute he is going to let DS2 have a turn. [or I will have to take it away]. DS1, how much longer do you need it for? 1 minute? 2 minutes?'
If he says 'A thousand million years' I say 'That's no good. It will have to be less than that. 1 minute? 2 minutes? 3 minutes?'
Surprisingly, he often chooses one of the shorter ones or hands it over before the time is up. It helps that his dignity has been preserved.

If DS2 has the toy, then I do: 'We can't just take it away because he'll cry, so DS1, you need to find a toy he would like instead'. Half the time, in the process of looking for one to swap, he finds one he'd rather play with anyway.

I'm not saying these always work but they're part of my armoury of strategies. The other day I did 'DD and DS1, if you let DS1 join in you can have sausages for tea.' They were going to have sausages for tea anyway but I don't think that was TOO bad parenting - they had made a 'museum' which DS2 was almost certain to destroy so I thought they should be praised and think they were being rewarded for being kind.

Get an egg timer.
Say to DS1, we're going to let DS2 have it for 3 minutes. Then we'll swap. He gets it first because he's younger and doesn't understand about waiting like big boys.
Set timer.
Swap toy.
Have something to hand for DS2 to hold when DS1 gets his turn.
Sing the 'Your turn, my turn, we will share / my turn, your turn, then it's fair' song, ad nauseum.
or
Pour yourself a G&T and sit at the bottom of the garden ignoring the screams.

PS And watch them fight over the egg timer too.

Work out how to play nicely or I will take the train-set away and then no-one will have it

How is that successful? That tactic works terribly badly ime. Because one of them always cares a lot more about the item than the other. So one ends up wailing, and the other one ends up smirking. Also, there can be spiteful violence in revenge for item being taken away, especially if one of them does try to make compromises but the other one is intransigent, resulting in toy confiscation. So I'm stuck in position of having to decide if one has been reasonable & how reasonable, was it reasonable enough compromise to let one keep playing but the other one is deprived? And is willingness to compromise behaviour by one cancelled out by same child's subsequent violence if they feel they've been unfairly punished & used violence to express their sense of injustice? Breeding ground for resentment no matter how I interfere. Hence I conclude that interference is bad bad bad. I still end up saying "I hope you two can come up with a solution because anything I do will seem much worse" I think this threat sometimes works. Mostly I confidently conclude that I am pretty inadequate at the whole thing.

Yes I have read Siblings Without Rivalry, there is so much it doesn't cover, alas.

I'd love to hear the UP solutions to the scenarios I describe (so I can smirk at the impracticality of it, admittedly). Keep in mind that one-up-manship is a vital part of the disputes. So reasoning with the warring parties is always out.

I have more success with the "take turns for one minute" strategy, but it can be tedious & requires much more time & attention than I can always dedicate.

I kind of agree with you DontEat What you have described is my exact thinking.
My ds1 is a wind-up merchant. He seems to thrive on pissing his brother off! But ds2, only being 3 and a half, doesn't understand this no matter how I word an explanation.
I used to do the whole egg timer thing with them, but haven't done that in a while. I need to buy a new timer I think.

I don't mean to offend anyone, and I'm not saying any method is wrong, we can all only do what we feel is right, but I can't get away from the fact that removing the toys just isn't doing anything to teach them the appropriate skills to get along with peers.
What happens in school? I have no idea at all what happens in a mainstream classroom in regards to play and sharing.

Take whatever it is away from them both, then they'll stop bickering with each other, and unite against you.

Silverymoon, I think in school most kids are in awe of their teachers, want to please them, and behave better when they are at home, for you. I suppose there's peer pressure to conform and be liked too.

It will get easier, your DS1 will become more mature and the little one will eventually learn to share. If you listen to them play, you'll probably hear that they're already playing nicely a lot of the time anyway - it's just that when you're trying to get on with other stuff it's the flashpoints between them that get your attention.

I think (sadly) close intervention is required until they get the hang of it. At the start of snatching/dischord, you call out you can hear some not nice behaviour. When wails increase, intervene with the turns thing. If that isn't working - one refuses to give it up or wait until their turn then the party not playing by the rules is removed to their room (or similar).

At 9,7 & 5 we are almost there, not great by any means but they do try to work it out before wailing "muuuuuuuum". Which is big improvement on the scratching/thumping they used to give each other when there was a disagreement.