Dd3 again - please tell me I handled this ok, feeling v drained

[Dancergirl]

We've been having lots of behavioural issues with dd3 aged 5 - not doing what's she's told, lots of tantrums and sometimes phyiscal lashing out. Dh and I know we haven't been firm enough in the past which we want to put right. We've had a sticker chart for her the past week or so - a sticker for good behaviour and a cross for naughty and if she gets more crosses than stickers she can't stay up for friday night dinner with the rest of the family.

So tonight - so far so good, dd3 staying up with us. But we hadn't even sat down yet and she started fussing over the seating arrangements. It changes every week, dh and I make it fair, and they each get a turn sitting next to both me and dh. But she wasn't happy tonight and this soon kicked off into a full-blown tantrum. So I said she had to go upstairs until she calmed down and couldn't join us until she'd stopped crying/screaming. I started to feel very down and low - this was yet another spoilt meal - and I felt bad for dds 1 and 2. We gave her a few chances to join us but the screaming carried on so I eventually (calmly) got her pyjamas out and said she had to go to bed. Unfortunately she hadn't eaten yet so I prepared a plate of food and she had it upstairs. I went to check on her later and she'd fallen asleep so left her.

I think I don't help matters as I'm too emotional and find it hard to get the balance right. Dh said she will get better and we've only just started this new way of doing things. But I feel v guilty about my feelings towards her at times like this - she's sometimes hard to love. I also noticed how much pleasanter it was without her which of course is a terrible thing to think .

I'm wondering whether to give up (for the time being) on the family meal and feed her separately earlier and then maybe she can stay up for a bit. It probably didn't help that she was hungry as it's after 7 by the time we eat.

i think you are on a very dodgy wicket using a family meal as the reward tbh

she is bound to know you won't really want to exclude her which means it is worth her kicking off to make her point, in the hope that she creates, you relent, she wins!

is it just too late for her....overtired and over hungry? Have supper earlier and make the treat a lazy late evening, or an early night and story time?

It sounds like you dealt with it well enough though, maybe just a few more stands from you and she will realise you have the upper hand.

catsmamma - but we didn't relent, we stood firm! I'm hoping she'll learn now that we'll stick to our word if she doesn't behave.

I know you didn't...i just suggested that she may think it more likely you would as it was a meal time

It really is all about being firm, fair and consistent. Obv make some allowances and if you do think that seven is late for her and going to make a flash point then maybe change that!

i think that behaving in order to earn your evening meal with your family is quite odd, to be honest with you.
i don't think it's a good idea in general to use food as a bargaining tool, i think that it's quite an abstract "prize" to earn and that being bad on monday (for example) ending up with no meal on friday is just too long and something she doesn't necessarily "get"

i also think that if you have said that she had enough stickers to stay and eat with you then you should let her. you can't then change it and say actually no, you've got to go upstairs.

lastly, at 7pm on a friday night... of course she'll be ratty!

now, i think you're on the right lines tbh, i just think you need a different reward, and soemthing that's more immediate. it could be if she has more stickers than crosses she gets a sweet after dinner each day or something?

do you prepare her for what is happening next? so, do you say to her "DD, we'll be sitting up in a minute. You sat next to Daddy yesterday, so today it's dd1's turn. you'll be sitting here, right opposite me! that means we can chat easily.."
don't turn it into a big issue, but make sure she knows what is happening before it happens.
some kids struggle with transitions, and find it hard when things don't go the way the think they're going to go, and you can help that by letting them know how things will work out in advance.

Yes I know you're right and now, 2 hours after the event, I'm still feeling rubbish.

thisisyesterday, it's not the actual food that's the reward, it the sitting down with the family. I have no intention of not feeding her, but I think she should know that a certain standard of behaviour is expected to take part in what is supposed to be a pleasant affair.

The problem with other rewards as you have suggested is that I don't think she'll actually CARE too much about not getting a sweet or whatever. I've thought about no tv if she plays up but don't think she'd be too bothered about that either. It's got to be something she cares about if she misses out.

Next week, I'm going to a) give her a substantial snack at 5ish so she's not starving hungry, and b) go over the seating arrangement with her in advance as you've suggested.

She's far more challenging than my other two at the same age, and I'm older now and more knackered!

The problem is tht staying up late to eat a late dinner isn't actually a treat for anyone. You then have to deal with a tired hungry daughter and she in turn is feeling tired and hungry! Althought she wants to be there she can't enjoy it because...you guessed it she is tired and hungry!

May I asks how old your other children are?

Rewards and punishments need to be instant so that she can see they are directly linked. She is far too you to understand that Mondays actions have consequences on Froday, by then she'll have totally forgotten what she did.

noteaforme my older dds are 11 and 9 so at the moment there seems to be a huge gap between them and dd3. Dd3's big bugbear is that she's the smallest in the family and I think she often doesn't feel 'heard'. But dh and I think we do make an effort both to make her feel included and listen to her thoughts, ideas etc, but it's never enough for her.

At the moment that is a big age gap, but I'm guessing it will feel smaller over
time!

I just think she's too young to stay up and have a late dinner. We have a friend who does this and it always feels more of a punishment for everyone-including the child-than a treat. He gets stroppy and hardly eats anything, it always end in an argument and it's not a nice experience! He's 9!

Could you have a different family treat on a Friday? Have dinner at normal time and then do 'movie nighy' so you all sit together to watch a kids film and have popcorn etc. something like that?

Would taking away a toy mean anything to her?

Dancer girl, don't feel bad about yourself. She is your challenge and you are feeling down and conflicted. But the fact that you feel this way is a positive thing, you are a good mum, you just have not found the key yet. I read a great book called "your child at 5" by Louise Bates Aimes. It might help you understand her more - it helped me with mine. Good luck and trust yourself. And remember, 5 is still very young. Put her in charge of seating plan and get the older two to put up with that for a while. The joys of having siblings and all that! Good luck

Thanks bratinghampalace (great name btw!) and everyone else.

There is also a lot of tension between her and dd2. Dd2 feels her little sister is spoilt and always gets her own way. I feel I really have to look out for the older two as they put up with a lot from dd3 in terms of her screaming fits and sometimes being physically hurt (which we are dealing with).

I KNOW things will get better and I do tell the older 2 this - dd2 doesn't believe me however! And dd3 can be very sweet and loving at times - I do try and focus on the positive.

If my dcs scream and fuss at the dinner table, I send them out the room, tell them they must be tired and to go lie on their bed. I don't think that is odd at all - they need to learn that it is not fair to disrupt the meal. It takes effort for me to make dinner and it should be a pleasant part of the day. Often it is because they are tired if they behave like that, and they do fall asleep. And that is at 6, not 7. 7 is probably just too late at the moment for dd.

Hi dancer girl

Listen to your gut feeling, you felt bad, you got emotional , there's nothing wrong with that . I know it's hard when your dd 'ruins' dinner for your other dc but it must have been devastating for her to be sent away from the family because she got upset. Children have meltdowns because of issues and stress that build up over time she may seem to get upset over small things such as seating arrangements but these are just triggers . So we may think that our child is being petty but it's best to offer love and support to a crying child .
I would also agree with other posters that maybe she got tired because of staying up late.
Also the whole punishment and reward system will not work in the long run because the child's emotions that cause the meltdowns don't get dealt with. Children given love and support whether they are happy or sad are much better behaved because the presence of the parents is always available not just if they are well behaved. You have a challenging task in meeting the needs of all your children simultaneously But try to listen to your gut emotion of love and supporting your child rather than training her to be 'good' when childrens emotional needs are met they are naturally cooperative. Have a look at the hand in hand parenting website or there is a book called helping young children flourish by aletha solter She also had a book called tears and tantrums which shows how to deal positively with all crying. In The long run if you can support your child through her meltdowns family life will be better for all your children .