Just having an expat/language wobble (Belgium)

[sanguinechompa]

Apologies if this has been done before (I did search!) and/or sounds horribly pfb!

DD is 8.75 yrs, attends a good but fairly rigorous school and is being educated in two languages other than English (our native tongue). (Our life is here and so we felt this was necessary.) She is the only totally English child in primaire (although more are coming through some years behind her in maternelle).

She is generally happy and content. She has friends of many different nationalities, enjoys extra curric activities and easily switches between English, French and Flemish (v. normal here). However, despite all this, I am aware on occasion that it is not always all "tea and cakes" being "the outsider" or the one who is "different" at school.

The other day, I had the opportunity to observe her (without her observing me) playing among solely English-speaking dc and I was rather taken aback as she seemed to have undergone a complete character transformation!

Whereas at school (to the best of my knowledge) she is a follower, not a leader, slightly restrained/timid, slightly lacking in confidence, in this instance among English-speakers she was full of beans, totally confident - almost boisterous - and completely at ease/without fear.

So I guess my question is: how much does a child have to suppress "who they really are" when being educated in a language, or languages, other than their native tongue? And how detrimental is this to their personal and social development. I know this is virtually impossible to quantify, but what is your experience?

bumping

should have named this - language development v personal/development

not specific to Belgium

It probably has more to do with social norms than language. The mores of school are that you study and behave 'nicely', the mores of a play ground or children's party are different.

I am not sure it is about suppressing "who you really are": I think most of us have a multi-facetted personality and express different parts at different times and in different settings. To me, becoming (more or less) bilingual has meant a chance to find another part of me, not something that I had unhappily suppressed, but just another facet. I am not the same person when I speak English. But then I'm not the same person when I am with my parents as when I am with dh. Bilingualism just adds another dimension.

I agre about different facets of personality ( even among different groups of friends speaking the same language - do you not find that?) There was an article a few weeks about it in New Scientist. Your daughter gains enormously from being multi-linual. Sorry cannot link to it. I am native ENglish speaker, fluent in Italian and French ( which I use daily for work, presentations, negotiations etc. And yes I have different personality traits for different languages, but that is good, not bad!

Thank you for your replies - and sorry to be getting back on here only now.

I'm happy to read that the consensus is that this is more about social norms/different facets of personality rather than "core development" as it were. Phew!!

I am totally convinced of the benefits of multi-lingualism - intellectually, socially and physiologically (according to articles I have read anyway - something to do with brain/nerve synapses if I remember correctly). I suppose my concern was a psychological one (although am woefully ignorant about this) - that one's native language is inseparable from one's culture and "being" - and that from the age of 2 years she has spent part of her day being "split" - and I was worried that one's core personality could be adversely affected by this. Especially if the main part of your day is spent using language or languages that are different to your native tongue and in which you are not always confident.

Oh dear - not expressing this very well!

But thank you again for your replies - I'm hugely reassured!

that one's native language is inseparable from one's culture and "being"

Ask Welsh person who only speaks English if they are English or Welsh? There is not a 1 to 1 correlation with language and culture.

A Beligian who speaks French has more in common with one who speaks Flemish (or German) than an individual from Ivory Coast or Mauritius.

How much does your daughter have in common with Usaine Bolt? Barack Obama? Julia Gillard? All are native English speakers but with different cultural backgrounds.

Another example, I'm quite a loud, opinionated person. I am an atheist. But if I attend a church wedding I become very quiet, sit still and don't say a word. Not because I can't but because it is not appropriate to the situation.

It might not be the language thing at all, but the school. My dd's Belgian school is very strict - mucking about is not really tolerated. Dd is an angel at school! She is much more cheeky, sulky, outgoing - more everything really - out of school whether she be playing with English or French speaking children.

Thanks again for once again - very reassuring - responses!

Thinking about it, I think both of your posts make absolute sense

Sashh you've made me look at the situation in a totally different way - for which I am grateful. I think I'm projecting "my" sense of who I am (Eng lit degree, worked in London book publishing, editing etc) on to dd who is in all ways multi-lingual. (Although I speak French to a reasonable level now, and have started to learn Flemish; I work in English, we speak English at home, in the office, with most of our friends etc) This is absolutely not the case for dd -and thank heavens for that - which was the whole point of encouraging her to go through a language submersion programme at school in the first place!

BawdyStrumpet yes I think I may have overlooked the obvious there - thank you! DD's school is pretty strict too! And ditto re: difference in her 'home' and 'school' behaviour!! Could just be a question of context.

ok - I'll stop chewing my knuckles now - thanks again for the reassurance everyone

"I suppose my concern was a psychological one (although am woefully ignorant about this) - that one's native language is inseparable from one's culture and "being" - and that from the age of 2 years she has spent part of her day being "split" - and I was worried that one's core personality could be adversely affected by this."

Remember that this split is absolutely normal for large parts of the world- much of Asia, much of Africa, much of South America: that would be an awful lot of adversely affected core personalities.

My own children have had two languages in their lives since they were on the delivery table. Their personalities seem ok. But wobbles are quite normal- don't feel guilty about that either.

Cory Yes, one forgets that bi- and tri-lingualism is perfectly normal for large tranches of the world.

However, that often occurs when peers and classmates who speak a collective 'native' language, all go to school in a foreign language (ie dc being schooled in English or French in various parts of Africa, and going home to speak their local dialect) ie it is a collective exercise.

It's a bit different when you are the only "outsider" - there is a case I think in those circs - when it could dent a child's confidence - especially with the wish to conform with one's peers being so strong.

However, I know the benefits of a bilingual/trilingual upbringing and education far outweigh the downsides.

I also know pychological wellbeing (ie having safe secure home, good familial relationships) is separate from this issue.

Thanks for being wobble-tolerant!

Are you in our Benelux MNetter club Sanguine? There is a mailing list and private FB group. PM me if you are interested....

I think that Belgians tend to be very conservative and disciplined and this does rub off on the children. Dd's school friends tend to be impeccably behaved when they come here. Very good manners etc. We are a bit more relaxed

I haven't really noticed that much difference in our children's behaviour when speaking French or English, but a great difference between how they act in different environments. Thankfully their Brussels primaire is not particularly strict, but still more rules there than they would have if they were in a UK school.

Yes it's definitely the case that Belgian children seem to know they must behave in the presence of adults, but I find that when among just friends and no-one looking over them, they tend to go a bit mad and to the opposite extreme, and they do this earlier in childhood, whereas in the UK there is the tendency to cut the umbilical cord in adolescence (which I find very bad timing).

Thank you BawdyStrumpet (love the nickname btw) - very kind - but haven't graduated to Facebook yet. (Bxls being what it is, there's a huge chance of knowing many people on here in rl without knowing it ifyswim so I tend to steer away from most social networks - apart from Mmsnet of course)!!

Yes, dd's friends tend to be impeccably well-behaved too. We once had a party when she was 4 yrs or so, when I erected a "scribbling" wall for everyone to draw on - and - you've guessed it - they were all too polite!!

Natation thank you - relief to know that the rebellion doesn't coincide with late adolescence over here - something I had heard about - and worried about - before.

And also good to know you both think this is 'situational' rather than language-related.

Sanguinechompa, we have a spreadsheet of Mnetters in Belgium and Netherlands which is now over 50, not all of us are on facebook, so we communicate by email and also facebook. You are very welcome to join us. Plans afoot for park picnic and wine tasting (without children) and I'd love to do a Netherlands and Belgium meet-up at some point.

Our 10 year old is very different when she does her Lutins (Brownies) where she really does seem to rebel against all things adult - I think children here are able to become independent earlier here and take responsibility here earlier and get to grips with their emotions earlier, that once adolescence kicks in, they seem to be less rebellious.

But I do see a shift even in the short almost 4 years we've been here, more teenage bad behaviour, less respect. We left the UK for this lack of community spirit and respect for neighbours, the problems do seem to be following us - today near our school a middle aged man got stabbed by youth(s) after and argument (reported in media), it sent a chill down my spine as I recalled a couple of months ago, I was verbally attacked, along with several other innocent bystanders, and briefly pushed by a youth and his gang of friends for preventing him from entering the metro without paying, it scared the shits out of me, I thought he was going to pull a knife on me. I digress sorry.

Hi Natation sorry to be replying to your post only now. And thank you very much for kind offer re: spreadsheet. I'm a bit tied up right now with work/house renovations/elderly parents but will definitely be in touch as and when I can recoup some time. Offer much appreciated!

Gosh how scary (about your incident on the metro and the stabbing). Quite a few of my friends have reported similar incidents although I haven't experienced anything like this personally (save for one chap on metro being arrested in front of me the other day - some sort of document violation I think). It would be a terrible shame if Belgium went the same way as the UK. Hopefully we are still safe on the "drinking uncontrollably (without eating) until you pass out" front ...for a few years yet anyway!