Advice on managing bilingualism from birth

[FjordMor]

I'm British, pregnant with my first & living in Norway with my Norwegian partner. My Norwegian isn't up to much at all yet so we've decided we want to bring the baby up fully bilingual as it would be weird for me & my family at home not to be able to speak to him/her in English and feel it's vital for him/her to have a native understanding of English.

At the moment, the plan is not to do one parent/one language although we will to some extent when making a concerted effort - with reading bedtime stories etc. My partner has 2 girls who will be 11 & 13 when the baby arrives who will only speak Norwegian to their sibling and live with us 30% of the time. Also he/she will spend a lot of time with his/her Norwegian extended family. Partner & I speak solely English at home when the girls aren't with us and he is completely fluent.

We figured as our child will be living in Norway and what with family and neighbour children & tv, mostly exposed to Norwegian, that I would speak solely English to him/her except when in family situations and that we would send him/her to an English (International) playgroup, pre-school and school where he/she would also get proper tuition in Norwegian language but the bulk of the teaching is in English.

Can anyone comment from experience as to whether this is a balance that might work to achieve true bilingualism?

Just a thought. In the beginning, my understanding of Norwegian, far outstripped my ability to speak (although they are much more level now).

Dh always speaks Norwegian directly to the dcs. We speak English to each other, but sometimes we adopt the approach that he will speak 100% Norwegian - to the dcs and to me, but I will answer in English (the dcs in Norwegian). It really increases the amount of Norwegian the dcs hear, but without me having to worry about my accent!

Lovely to meet you cakeandcava, and congrats on your pregnancy! So many parallels we should start our own club! Sounds like we're going to have very similar approaches. The in-laws have been over this weekend bringing a bag of Norsk baby books we requested. (No luck finding any Norwegian baby song CDs yet though...). Are you in London? If so, the Norwegian church in Southwark hosts a range of Norwegian playgroups which I'm hoping will be really useful a bit further down the line... :)

Destrier - That sounds a great approach. I'm hoping my Norwegian will develop alongside the baby's so maybe DP'll be able to try the 100% Norwegian at some point. At the mo, I'm trying to get DP to speak 'no-brainer' Norwegian to me as part of our normal conversations (e.g. "Here's your tea", "Thanks for dinner" etc) which requires no response on my part but hopefully will facilitate my learning! I'm such a numbnut though, it's gonna take a while... :)

This thread keeps bumping off my 'Threads I'm on' (probably because I've been too busy to get in and post. Doh!).

Destrier - sounds like a really good system this persistence and stubborn refusal to change languages. Don't blame you wanting to live in Bergen - it's beautiful! (even if it is one of the rainiest places on earth! ). I'm totally persevering with the language (have to have a really meaningful relationship with my step-daughters) and totally agree with you. I'm at that stage where I can understand 50-70% of what is being said, but I don't have the language to reply or get involved and, for what I do know, my pronunciation is so poor that we all give up and continue in english. I'm looking forward to some 1-1 conversational classes with a local teacher to back up my burgeoning knowledge and hope that will make all the difference.

Hi cakeandcava :) Wow! So many parallels! Never thought I'd end up in this conversation with 3 other ladies in Norwegian/British relationships, let alone 2 of them both due at the same time! Am I the only one currently living in Norway? I guess the only difference is in theory it should be easier for me with English the minority language than for you guys in the UK with Norwegian the minority language. Did you think of getting children's DVDs over from Norway - so much seems to be available for kids here, cartoons dubbed over in Norwegian etc.

violetlights - my in-laws do the same with me. Have started to ask me how I want my coffee...little things, directly in Norsk so I have to understand and attempt to reply to them. They mix it up and don't make a big deal out of it. In fact sometimes they just 'forget' to speak English to me. This does help a great deal.

well I'm british DH norwegian and we live in rural trønderlag with dd1(6), dd2(4) and ds(2). We use OPOL, but all norwegian barnehage/school (not much choice when you live in the middle of nowhere!)

I'm happy with the kids english, but I do work on it actively at home, so for example dd1 has just finished 1. klasse at school and I have expected her to work on her reading in english so it keeps pace with her reading in norwegian. She has managed this, which I'm pleased about since english is alot less straight forward to read than norwegian. We also do 'maths in english' at home to keep up that aspect.

dd2's english is a bit muddled at the moment but we're working on that with some structured sessions (using language for thinking) and the progress has been immense in just a couple of weeks. She became v. lazy with english as we spent 9 months living with my non english speaking in laws but since moving into our own home the english exposure has gone through the roof and things are looking good again. She's beginning to read in english and taking to it better than her big sis did so I don't think the lack of english over the last 9 months is going to cause any lasting problems

ds is still young but does use both languages so I'm happy with that for now.

I've been here for over 10 years so I have no problems with norwegian and I think that means I have to be v. strict with myself to 'require' the dcs speak english and not let it slip into norwegian.

I try and make sure that the most of their books/dvds/ etc. are in english to boost their exposure. The biggest challenge I find is that we v. often have the kids friends round and then I have to speak norwegian, and I've had to relent and let them have some norwegian dvd's too mind you dd2s best friend is desperate to learn english so maybe we should just go for some immersion teaching there.......

I don't think having a few Norwegian dvds will do any harm, Viking. In fact, once dc got beyond a certain stage I found their two languages supported one another: expanding their horizons in one language seemed somehow to improve their level of thinking in the other language too. It was quite funny: when they got back to the CM after the holidays she used to comment on how their English had improved over the summer and I'd be thinking "but they haven't heard a word of English in 6 weeks!" So we had plenty of books in both languages.

Immersion teaching sounds good. [smiile]

Not got much to add - I was also brought up with OPOL which worked for me. My DM also taught me to read German before I started school, as I would not have learnt to read/write it otherwise (or at most not for several years). Will your DC be taught to read and write both languages at school?

The main problem we had was that my sibs got very lazy (and also more selfconscious) as they got older, and started answering questions (or after they moved out, chatting on the phone etc) in English. The result was that their German has become relatively rusty over time. With hindsight, more regular trips to Germany around that time, and maybe a bit more "pushing", or support during the teenage years, would have helped them keep it up. (I was the oldest, so was more used to speaking German at home so this didn't affect me as much. But between us we used English, which made German more of an "exception" to them I guess as we got older). But hopefully this won't be so much of an issue for you, as English is seen as more "cool" and more universal, and there are much more programmes/books/magazines etc readily available.

I'm also convinced that speaking 2 languages makes it much easier to learn more later on!

My Name Is You are right that english is 'cool', well at least when you're 6, I'll have to wait and see what happens in the teenage years!

And cory, I agree about the languages boosting each other, I've seen that too. I guess the DVD/book thing is more a case of trying to boost their exposure without it seeming like a chore to them. DS now knows the names of all the in the night garden characters in 2 languages (hugely important skill that )

We are also having multiple languages in the house and one parent one language is what we do as well. I always speak to the children in Dutch and my wife speaks to them in German whereas we speak English to each other (living in the UK also makes this a rather important language). By being consistent, our little ones are now in that stage where they are looking at who they talk to before trying to respond in that person's language - very funny to see them so deep in thoughts :)
Because I spend most of the time with them, they now have a slight advantage in Dutch. However, if the children say something to my wife and it is in the wrong language, they almost correct themselves and immediately repeat the same sentence in the correct language.
This has taken us quite some time and being consistent is the hardest thing. When on holiday, we also kept talking in our native language even though the people around us did not speak (or understood) the language. Abroad, this has let to some rather funny situations and a serious number of bewildered looks.
As the children have taken longer to start talking, we were even suggested to drop one of the languages. We refused and are now enjoying 'being told off' by our son in Dutch and 'counted down' by his sister in the ... whatever relevant language :)

This thread fell off my active conversations as well -sorry!
Wow, lots of Norwegian/English relationships here. Must be a good match

I'm really glad to hear other people's good experiences with OPOL. I understand it means it usually takes a little longer for the child to properly start speaking and developing language, but I don't think that will worry us, especially not if we know there is a good reason why.

FjordMor (great name!) I'm going to start hoarding Norwegian children's books (and try to remember old songs) soon, and will try to get Norwegian-dubbed versions of children's films further down the line. There should be plenty, both from my own childhood and more recent stuff hopefully.

Violet sadly not in London (am in Edinburgh), I've heard that the Norwegian community attached to the seaman's church is really good and helpful, not sure if there is anything on that scale up here in the north...

vikinglights - rural Trønderlag! A whole different kettle of fish from expat-friendly Stavanger! :) I admire your work and input with your kids. I feel very fortunate to have the option of the British School barnehage which apparently costs no more than the regular barnehage although places are fiercely contested and priority given to itinerant oil worker families I think. For me I feel it may be the added input we need as my LO will also have 2 Norwegian siblings around half the time which will swing the OPOL balance in favour of Norwegian quite heavily.

Constantly happy to hear peoples' positive experiences of OPOL; what works and what the occasional weak spots are. It's great to be able to plan as effectively as possible before our LO is born as to how to handle it.

cakeandcava - that's a great idea! Our LO will not want for old Norwegian children's books and songs; DP always sang to his girls and is a total bibliophile - having kept all the books from his childhood! It is me who must play catch up with english books, songs, etc. :)

Still in astonished admiration for those of you managing more than 2 languages!

I have friends with kids in international school/barnehage in trondheim and its is clearly beneficial from an english language point of veiw, and makes for a lot less work at home. I'n not sure how positive I would feel about the relatively high pupil turnover and the lack of a 'local community' for the school because the pupils are spread over a large geographical distance, but then I am looking at it from a small school community oriented perspective.

Mind you even though we are a very small community we are fairly international, my kids are at school/barnehage with kids with parents from USA, russia, germany, philipines, thailand, brasil, bosnia, lithuania and obviously I'm from the UK so there is nothing unusual about being bilingual here :)

It's so interesting to read your experiences!

I was wondering what will be best for my baby, my OH is Swedish and I'm English, we live in Sweden and hope our baby will be bilingual. I will speak English and my OH Swedish but we both really feel its important for the child to go to a Swedish dagis (day care) and school so they "feel" swedish. I understand Swedish and can speak it, but not well enough to teach a child Swedish, my OH thinks it will be best for him to talk to me in Swedish and me to reply in English, so the baby only hears us talking our main language. Doe sanyone have any experience of this working (or not working)?

The thing that worries me is that English will be such a small part of their life, with Swedish friends and a large Swedish family around, I think it would work well for my OH to speak to me in English and me reply in English, that way at least the baby will hear a little more English.

My OH has been talking to my little bump in Swedish its adorable!

tack and kram!

hmm language between parents,

well we've tried to stick to a rule of 1 conversation 1 language but its a bit hit and miss (we both speak fluent english and norwegian). Personally I wouldn't go for DH speaking norwegian and me speaking english in the same conversation because I feel the languages should be kept as seperate entities iyswim. Mind you I have no research to back me up it just wouldn't feel natural to blend.

We up the english input by meeting up with other english speakers, books, dvd's and lots of talking to my family and friends in the UK

that makes sence vikinglights, i think its not best to teach the child that they can reply in swedish when i speak in english. I think i'd find it hard to listen to swedish and reply in english.

The english speaking meet ups sound great, also i intend to tell them all films/tv is in english.. I wonder how long that will last!

If 2 parents both speak the same 2 languages equally, I think it would be impossible to do a OPOL set-up wouldn't it? I'm sure naturally you would just use one or the other or both in quick succession. There's an Indian family in our school, I asked what language they spoke at home, they said it's Hindi and their own local language as a real mix, I suppose it's the norm from where they come from, no separating Hindi with one parent and local language (can't remember name) with the other parent.

vikinglights - I know what you mean about the pupil turnover in international schools and this is why I'm only considering it at pre-school level for the moment (I figure not many kids end up in the same schools as friends from barnehage unless you're in a village or something and often the closest chums become relatives, kids of parent's friends or neighbour kids anyway - was certainly the case for me). It is very interesting to hear how cosmopolitan Norway is becoming, even outside of the big city areas.

DP and me will speak English together, but he speaks Norwegian to his 2 other children and his family so I'm hoping that will just help our LO know that some people you speak one language with and some the other, rather than mixing it up. Am starting to worry a little about OPOL as although DP has whole-heartedly agreed to it, as we are 2 most of the time, speaking english, he is already speaking to LO in the womb in english without thinking about it. However, I'm sure there is no way Norwegian will end up under-represented in the LO's life so I'm not going to worry too much. We may well put her in Norwegian school at 6 as long as her English is strong by then and she is willing to use it. We know she'll make better, longer-lasting friendships and community in a Norwegian school and I hope that we can find a balance whereby she'll feel like a 'normal' Norwegian but also feel British and identify with that.

Hi again Fjordmor,
I agree you don't have to worry about your little one not getting enough norwegian input, its the community language and they have their norwegian speaking siblings. I also know families where the norwegian parent speaks english to the kids as well as the english speaking parent and it works for them. I guess its horses for courses.

You are also right that most kids don't move on from barnehage to school together. Not unless you live somewhere like I do anyway :-)

vikinglights - that's good to know (about the OL parent speaking english to the kids as well) as DP is so used to using english at home that he often answers to his own (Norwegian) kids in english now. I think he'll find it hard to 'train' himself to speak in Norwegian only except to me.

littlemissbroody26 - most of the posters on here seem to agree that persistence is needed in insisting that your child reply in english in these situations although some go through a phase of not wanting to reply in a particular language, they seem to come around if you are persistent, if the experiences on here are anything to go by.

Can I ask why you're not going for a straight, OPOL system? For us it's worked out fine - I speak English (L1) to our 2 dc's, DP speaks his first language with them (very minority so I don't want to name it because I'll out myself! - Let's call it L2). And we live, and they both go to school, in a country with a third language - L3.

DP and I always speak in English to each other. When DC1 was born, he would speak in English sometimes out of habit, and I was the language police and would remind him to use L2 (I know others in our situation with monolingual kids, and it seems like such a wasted opportunity - it's worth the effort in the first few weeks, while baby is a newborn, for your partner to change the habit and get used to speaking his first language with DC).

I was really interested when we had DC2 to see which language they would use with each other. DC's often speak L2 to each other, unless they're discussing computers which is generally in English. Since DC2 started nursery they sometimes use L3 (especially when playing teachers). Even in front of a big group of English family/ friends, DP only uses L2 with them - only exception is when he's helping them with homework, when they use L3. We're in a very multi-lingual environment so that doesn't seems rude here, it might be different somewhere else.

DC1 is a bit shy, and when out in an L3 environment prefers nodding, headshaking or whispering in my ear rather than speaking English so people can hear. It's understandable I think - speaking English gets a lot of attention. DC2 is much more extroverted and speaks to whoever, in whatever language seems to be working! They don't seem at all confused, although they will occasionally substitute words in L2 or L3 if they don't know the English - it's a conscious thing though, "Mummy I don't know the English, it's xxx"

Wow, apologies for the massive, confusing essay! Posting it now though, it's taken me an age to write

Mmmango - great to hear your experiences - not that confusing to read at all! :) If your comment was aimed at me, on my original post, I can say now that I am going for a straight OPOL system, after all the feedback on this thread, and just kind of meant I was glad to hear from others' experiences (especially from the country I'm living in) that if my partner lapses into my language and isn't perfect at practicing OPOL, it shouldn't make a big deal of difference (mine is the minority language), which was our initial concern - not that OPOL wouldn't be the most effective, but that it would be difficult for us to stick to rigidly.

As I've said before, I'm full of awe for people making more than 2 languages work! It's really interesting to hear which languages your children choose to use in different settings and around different activities! :)

Haven't read the whole thread but am in a similar situation FjordMor

I am British and DH is Dutch. We live in the Netherlands and have one DS (9mo).

We have decided on OPOL. DS will hear me speak Dutch with my ILs though and obviously if I'm out and about doing errands, but otherwise he will only hear me speak English. (DH and I speak English together). DS will get Dutch input from DH, ILs and nursery as well.

There is an International school option here but we have decided that DS will go to a Dutch primary because a) we're not planning on moving to the UK b) we'd rather he had friends in the neighbourhood/locally rather than carting him to the International school and then having friends scattered in an hour radius c) money wise it doesn't make sense to make an extra expense for ourselves.

For secondary school there are lots of bilingual schools here, but we will leave it up to DS to decide if that's what he wants. The only thing I worry about is writing skills in English. (looking WAY into the future now!)

I agree with previous posts about English being "cool". I find that the view of a language by society is very important. I imagine that in Norway, like in the Netherlands, English is a valued language, compulsory in school and seen as a great asset. One of my colleagues here who is Polish found that her DDs got to a certain stage where they didn;t want to speak Polish - partly because they didn't see it as useful.

I do worry about DS at some point not wanting to speak English. I have an American friend who's 4DCs have a good understanding of English but are reluctant to speak it (one of them refused to speak in English to his American GM when she was visiting).

Someone recommended "Growing up with 2 languages" here on MN and I found it quite useful.

Great thread. We are in a very similar position, expecting our first baby at the end of November. I am British, DP is French. DP has lived here for more than 10 years and we met in this country so we mostly speak English together, though my French is actually OK after a bit of practice and I speak French with his family. We plan to do OPOL. DP is worried about the 'weighting' effect of the English environment but we live very close to a bilingual French/English nursery so we are hoping to use that in a few years' time, and there are many other French speaking resources/networks in London now. We also have a flat in Paris which we have decided no longer to rent out so that we can easily go regularly for short breaks (we live in North London). DP has already started speaking and singing to my bump in French - he sings the Marseillaise every day and the baby jiggles vigorously in response which is quite sweet! I've just ordered the "Growing up with two languages" book, thanks for the recommendation.

Kalidasa, if you can afford it, the College Francais Bilingue de Londres in Kentish Town starts currently at 5 years old but keeps having plans to add classes for younger children, the advantage for you at this school is that French nationals can get apply for bursaries to use against the fees and they also get enrolment priority there.

LOl your DP doesn't even need to sing the Marseillaise as it's been on the TV several times already this week since France have already won 4 golds at the Olympics.

Ooh thanks for that tip natation. We actually live in NW3 so Kentish Town is really close. I'll bookmark their website for future reference!

Kalidas, la Petite Ecole Bilingue is opening a new school from 3-11 in the building Ile aux Enfant s left when they moved into College Francais Bilingue last year, so you have PS and MS there, even if College Francais Bilingue don't open those classes.
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