at my wits end with ds1 - can anyone help?

[elliott]

I've posted about ds1's recent problems with wetting his pants a couple of times before, but I am really getting down about it now and don't know what to do. He is 4.2 and has been out of nappies since 2.5 - he potty trained quickly, but has never been 100% reliable - usual pattern has been several weeks with no accidents with occasional bad days.
Since October he has been terrible - more accidents than he ever had as a newly training toddler. He got to the point of having accidents virtually every day, and sometimes several times a day. Then over Christmas he was great - we had a new reward system (chocolate ) and I thought maybe he'd got over it. He's been ok-ish since but this week has been appalling again. Wet pants everyday except one (saturday); yesterday he had three big wees in his pants at nursery, one of which the teacher saw him doing, asked what he was doing to which he apparently replied 'doing a wee' and then laughed...He's also had a wet bed three times this week (despite being in pullups). He does have completely dry nights sometimes so this is unusual.
I am getting really frustrated, miserable and perplexed about this and just don't know what to do about it. It seems to be related in time to starting his new nursery and to get worse towards the end of a half term. I'm worried that he is unhappy or upset about something, but how do I find out and what do I do about it? He appears happy at nursery and he has just as many accidents at home. I'm worried that he will start to get teased about it. He never tells anyone when he's wet, and usually its not obvious unless you check (i.e. I check - dh isn't great at noticing either)- so often at nursery he could be sitting for hours in damp pants, which obviously upsets me. He does seem pleased when he keeps his pants dry, so I think he does want to be able to do it - but I don't know why he just doesn't! Its like he has a few days of 'trying' - i.e. remembering to rush to the loo when he feels his wee coming, and then he just stops bothering and just sits there and lets it happen.
My questions are:

1. Should I take back control and insist he goes regularly? This isn't goign to help at nursery obviously, but at least might break the habit of having his pants wet a lot of the time.
2. What should I do when he is wet? I try to be low key, but often can't stop myself trying to get him to explain what's happened...
3. What sort of incentives should I have for staying dry? Lots, or try nothing for a while? Current system certainly not working!
4. Where can I get expert help? Not that impressed by my HV but I'll try anything! Nothing in any of my parenting books about this.... Sorry this is so long but I'm really at a loss and wondered if anyone has been there and can advise....

Why don't you take him to the doctors just to make sure that he hasn't got an infection which may make him wee suddenly.
Make him go to the toilet before you go out.

I know its hard but try to keep it low key when he wets himself.Get him to get dry things out of his drawer and put his wet pants in the washing machine.

Some times children get that involved in playing and don't want to leave what they are doing and leave it too late to get to the loo.
I don't think the cold weather helps either sometimes it just makes them want to wee.(remember when you take them to be weight and you strip them off and as soon as the air hits thats it wee up the wall.)
I hope this helps.

Yes, I probably do need to get him checked out re the UTI - although my gut feeling is that this isn't the issue.
The thing is, we are not talking someone who is only just potty trained, he's been out of nappies nearly 2 years and it has only recently become a big problem. And, its the same cold weather and interesting play for all his peers, so why is he the only one (or one of very few) who has a problem? And why is it going on and on?
I already get him to change himself etc etc and try my hardest to keep it low key, but he (of course) is well aware that I want him to stop doing it!

My eldest son went through a stage of doing this although not fully wetting himself. I don't know why he did it. I know that on occassions he was playing and just didn't leave enough time to get to the toilet.
Maybe someone else will be able to give you more answers.

Yes, ds1 usually doesn't fully wet himself. How old was your ds when he did this and did he just grow out of it?
I know I should probably just take a chill pill about it all but I'm now fretting that there is some deeper upset causing it...

He was 4-5 and he went through stages of being really good and remembering to go as soon as he needed too. Then he'd go back to just suddenly wetting again. He hasn't done it for along time and he's 6 now. (although he is very rarely dry at night).

That sounds familiar except that our good phases have been few and far between for the last fwe months. Resigned to the long haul on nights I think - though again finding this frustrating as on a 'good' phase he can have quite a run of dry nights (strangely bad days and nights seem to go together)

I think I'll take my ds to the doctors once he turns 7 regarding his wetting at night, although I'm not keen on the idea of alarms etc to wake him.
My youngest son who is 3 next week has amazing bladder control and has already shown signs of being dry at night.
I don't know if it's more of a boy thing that they can sometimes be lazy at going to the toilet and it doesn't bother them if they are wet or not.

try something like - if you are dry all day (or if that is too long say all morning) you get a star. When you get x number of stars you get a "reward" - you choose the reward and set the numbers as you feel appropriate. Stretch them as he gets more reliable.

I am thinking that some kids (boys ?) maybe just dont mind being wet and after the initial interest in toilets wear off just get lazy. They need encouragement to get it right fo rmuch longer than we realise, until it finally gets to be second nature.

throckenholt, that's exactly the kind of reward system we've had. Except that it didn't seem to be working so I changed stars to chocolate (which coincided with a brief but marked improvement ). Now that seems to have lost its motivational power too and he hasn't had a reward for a week. I built in some bigger rewards too for sustained good periods - he got a couple of those just after Christmas but now its back to square one again. I don't knwo whether to keep reminding him that the reward is still on offer or just to totally ignore the whole issue, tbh.

sorry, I know its boring, but any more ideas please? What would you do with a four year old doing this? Who had previously been, if not perfectly reliable, tolerably so?

Sorry, no idea but just thought I would post to sympathise with you. My DS was like this. Potty trained perfectly at just over 2, was completely dry for a whole year and then his sister was born. We had 18 months of him fully wetting himself 3or4 times a day and then not fully wetting as someone described. He is now 9 and is still doing it!! Have tried everything. I just ignore it now and wash his trousers everyday so he doesnt smell of wee! I am presuming he won't still be doing it at 15!!!!

let me know if you find any miracle cures!!

My ds is 5yrs next week, abd still has accidents regularary, I have just taken in urine samples this week and awaiting results, I know how hard it is, ds is so bad that as much as we try and protect our furniture it gets destroyed, for example, we started potty training him when he was almost 3, and we have had to buy 2 new 3 piece suites since then, well second hand ones.

and you have an apt name then!!!! LOL

Elliott - a lot of this seems very familiar to me. Ds1 is 4.4 and he is basically very reliable but still has lots of accidents - some small and some not so small.

Like your ds, I feel in my heart of hearts that he can do it if he wants to and my approach so far has included:

1. Letting him know in no uncertain terms that it DOES matter. I know this will be frowned on, but I really don't want him to sit in wet pants for hours on end (he's had wee rashes a couple of times and doesn't like it so I remind him of that).

2. He has a range of 'pictures pants' which he loves but is only allowed to wear if he's been dry the previous da - plain pants if accident the previous day. This doesn't work as well as it used to.

3. Being really excited and happy if he gets to the toilet on time and has dry pants / being ecstatic with joy if he's got to the end of the day with dry pants (lay it on thick about pictures pants tomorrow...)

4. Not being allowed to choose what to watch on tv when it's next on (ds2 at 2.5 has quite different taste). This is quite a new tactic and he really feels it when he loses out on his turn to choose and I think for now it's working with him.

5. Dh is convinced that ds1 waits until the wee is coming and by then it's too late to get to the toilet - and then he doesn't like to tell anyone what he's done. Ds1 hates being made to go to the toilet (like before a journey), but we're trying to emphasise all the time that you go to the toilet BEFORE the wee is coming.

6. I've not tried taking back control and insisting he visits the toilet every two hours or whatever, but we are going to have to tackle his wee dance - we can ask and ask and ask and he'll deny he needs to do a wee, and then bingo, wet pants. It gets me so cross and I struggle not to let him see that.

7. Oh, and he has a pair of pull up pants in his nursery bag - intended as a sort of warning that if he wee'd at nursery, that's what he'd have to wear, although I do worry that this warning is what stops him telling carers that he's wee'd - oh god, don't do this, I'm regretting it.

Fortunately he's never had a problem at nights, so I know that his problems are not 'functional'. Do agree it sounds like a good idea to get him checked out at drs, and then good luck with whatever strategy you pick.

eek, sorry, that's a bit long isn't it.

thanks everyone. Poppiesinaline, that's a bit depresssing . But also makes me wonder again whether there has been some kind of emotional trigger for ds1's relapse...
waterfalls, hope you get some joy soon! We don't usually have full on accidents, fortunately, so the furniture is spared even if my sanity is frayed..
Jamiesam you could be me! Even same age gap between ds's! I have tried pretty much the same strategies as you too (not thought of picture pants though - there's another idea!) Is your ds1 dry at night then? We don't really have a 'wee dance' - I kind ofthink it would be better if we did because at least I would know then that he's trying to hold it in...
I kind of oscillate between thinking I should really try to ignore it and act as though I'm not bothered, and goign back to taking him to the toilet every couple of hours. hmmmm. I think if he doesn't improve soon from this bad patch I'll go back to telling him for a while - at least then he'll get used to the feeling of dry pants again.

Elliott - ds1 was dry at night around one month after we finally cracked (or so I thought!) being dry during the day.

Might help to know that he was much more reliably dry at nursery before he was dry at home!!!

A strategy in other circumstances for us is to explain that certain food or toys is 'only for boys who' - are well behaved, don't embarrass me in the shops (I wish!) etc. Might be worth a try - show him the pictures pants in the shop for example.

Good luck with acting as if you're not bothered - I don't think I'll ever master that one.