Introducing a bottle - is breastfeeding over?

[Boomerwang]

Hi, my baby is a week old and I've been breastfeeding since she was four days old (not long I know) but she's been demanding a feed in clusters at certain times of the day and my nipples are killing me. When she latches on I feel like crying with the pain. I have checked out a breastfeeding guide to learn how to get a proper latch and that has helped a lot, but sometimes it's just too much.

My boyfriend bought me a breast pump and I feel like it's my saviour. I've expressed about 40ml of milk from my leaky boob and it's in the fridge for the next feed.

I'm worried because I keep reading that once you introduce a bottle to a baby, they won't feed from the breast any more. Is that true? I plan to use the bottle only once or maybe twice a day if she's really hungry, as the pain does subside after a few hours and becomes manageable.

Also, she seems to only be able to latch on to one of my boobs. The nipple on the other boob seems to sink inwards when I try to pinch around it so she can get a good latch. Is there such a thing as a useless boob? (apart from OH's)

Sorry for being a pain in the arse, I'm very new to all this.

Sorry, I have breastfed since she was born but it was mostly off a teaspoon for the colostrum, and she had to have formula because she was premature.

Try reposting in breast and bottle feeding, you will get much better replies :)

It's definitely not true that introducing a bottle will automatically mean the baby won't want the breast any more, but it can introduce problems, mainly nipple confusion (baby prefers to use the bottle) and supply issues, because at the moment your milk supply is being set up to "sync" with the baby's needs, any feeds from a bottle, especially regular ones, can interfere with this.

My advice would be to by all means use it if you are desperate and can't stand it any longer, but not to rely on it as a long term solution, you need to seek help with your baby's latch ASAP because it shouldn't still be hurting at this stage. Am curious as to why you are pinching your breast to get a latch, too? I've never heard this recommended (am a BF peer supporter). It is possible to breastfeed with inverted nipples :)

Sorry Mumsnet has messed with the links to all the forums and I forget what's available.

I have to pinch my nipple because if I just put her on to it she doesn't create a vacuum so she gets angry. Also, if I don't do it she'll just suck on the nipple instead of chewing my aureola (sp?) and that hurts like crazy. It feels like she'll bite it off - even with no teeth.

One of my boobs is leaking loads and it would be great if I could get her to latch on, but try as I might the damn nipple inverts as soon as I get it into her mouth. It's not uncommon for me to have to try over twenty times with both boobs and my poor baby gets so frustrated :(

Has she been checked for tongue tie, and if so, how did they check? This doesn't sound normal, you need to seek RL help ASAP. Don't keep struggling on like this :)

Are you still under care of midwives or have you moved onto HVs now?

I wasn't having a go BTW - no need to apologise. But there are real experts on the breastfeeding forums who might not see the post here. It's fine to repost, here's the link:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding

I just hate to think of someone struggling when it sounds like you could get sorted if you had the right support. Unfortunately it often takes a bit of seeking out. Not ideal, but worth it.

This is the list of La Leche League groups in England - there is a link at the side for Wales, Scotland, NI and other countries.

i have no idea what tongue tie is or if she's been checked for it. she's just had a feed and after about 4 tries she latched on really well. also it was the fourth long feed in 5 hours. thanks for your advice i will see what is on that forum and website. soz for bad post typing one handed

It is possible to keep BF and bottle going together. My LO had the bottle 'cos of jaundice when very litle. Then I had antibiotics which we didn't want her getting so we started bf (again) after about 2 weeks. At 4 months we're still combo feeding.

That said my supply has never built up to "enough" so most of what she gets is formula. It's very easy to let bottle feeding take over.

Tongue tie is where the frenulum - the little bit of skin connecting the tongue with the bottom of the mouth, we all have one - is too tight and means the baby can't push their tongue out far enough. This can cause problems with breastfeeding because the latch is too shallow and can cause the baby to "chew" rather than suckle, especially on the nipple only. It is painful and can affect milk supply, long term.

Are there any local breastfeeding support groups to you? Ask your midwife or health visitor if they know of any.

Would you like me to link this in the breastfeeding section? I'm concerned you're missing out on the great advice from posters there who have experienced the same thing.

You don't have to give her the ebm in a bottle, try a sterile syringe from the chemists and feed her that way. itt will take a while but you won't get nipple confusion.
It sounds looks you need some help with latch and positioning, is there a breast feeding group you can get too? Or maybe check out your discharge pack, our local hospital puts a few leaflets in with breast feeding peer supporter contact details in and all the helpline numbers.
Remember if you feed her the ebm pump as well to keep your supply up. Some mums pump and feed very well, you just need to pump a lot

I gave DS a bottle when he was 4 weeks old. (No-body told me my supply would be low after a c-section) I breastfed for another year. He had one 4 oz bottle of formula a night all of that time and it never put him off the nipple.

Send your OH to Mothercare to buy a great nipple cream called Lansinoh - it's in purple packaging. It's expensive but worth every penny and will last for ages. It will soothe your nipples and you don't need to keep wiping it off.

Agree with those suggesting you should try to find a local bf-ing group to get good advice on latch/other possible issues. Best of luck.

Hmm it'll be hard to utilise a bf group as I'm miles from anywhere here in Sweden, although when we visit the midwife once a week or two weeks whatever it is, I'll ask about some advice.

The discharge pack we had from the hospital is in Swedish. My bf has translated it for me and the advice was simply to call a number if I had any problems. I might just do that?

Thanks for the info on tongue tie. I've now read that it can be corrected, but I'm loathe to put my baby into such a position and I'm not sure she has problems with her tongue because sometimes the latch is good. Pure fluke, those times.

Yesterday I told my bf I'd only use the pump once a day. Today I've used it four times :( I feel it's just so much easier. I do notice that my baby guzzles the milk very fast from the bottle (slow flow teat) and then seems hungry for more, even if I've double expressed about 40ml of milk (she was on 20ml in the hospital on Sunday). I guess it's because it hasn't had a chance to make her feel full yet, but she gets grumpy if I don't give her more.

Today has been better. If I can't be bothered to express or I've slept with the baby between feeds I'm still offering the breast and although the first greedy sucks make me feel faint and stop my breath, it seems to smooth over.

I'm glad to read that I may be able to successfully breast and bottle feed together. I would enjoy the closeness with breastfeeding if it didn't hurt. As it is I get nervous when she starts to wake up, and that's a real shame.

I'm trying out Boots Expert Moisturising Nipple Cream, as that's what my Mum bought for me. I can't really spend any cash. Everything the baby has was donated to us or bought for us. It seems to be quite effective at keeping my nipples soft and I rub breast milk around after expressing as I get a bit messy anyway :)

When I was in hospital still with my daughter, they showed me how to hand express into and then use a syringe to feed her with. I think they are possibly better, somehow, than using a bottle, if you are concerned about nipple confusion etc.

I'm not an expert though. But those first days/weeks can be really hard, I remember. (Understatement.) I did find Lansinoh to be a life saver, it was so worth having. If the Boots stuff doesn't do it, it might be worth just asking your Mum to send some if you can't find it there.

Best of luck. It does get better, and it really is worth it.

Ah, I didn't realise you were in Sweden.

La Leche League has groups internationally, so there may well be one near you. I think though that the levels of BF support in Sweden are generally better than the UK, so definitely ask for help and advice. La Leche League Sweden - according to this, the LLL Leader speaks English, and there's a phone number.

Your baby can still have tongue tie if the latch is good sometimes - why not get her checked for it? Then you can make the decision about whether to have it corrected or not. I know many people here in the UK whose babies have had it done and it is a very minor procedure, less stressful/serious/painful than baby jabs, which may need to be done in later life anyway due to speech problems.

You can continue to breastfeed, but I think you need real life support at this time if you want to carry on, otherwise it's really likely that you'll get stuck in the trap of the bottle being easier, which means you use it more, which makes breastfeeding feel worse, and eventually it tails off. This is fine, if you're happy with it, but it would be a shame if you're not.

The bit you describe where the first few sucks are painful but then the rest of the feed is good - that's an excellent sign, that's what would be generally expected at about this time.

It sounds like you are getting better, remember whilst a lot of bfing is instinct for mum and baby you still need to learn how to do it. Pain is pretty much to be expected for a few days until your nipples get used to the frequent sucking, you find a position which is comfortable and baby gets a good latch.
A good cream will help to if you feel you might be getting sore but vaseline can be justa s good and cheaper.
Please try and get some real life help to check latch and positions. The more you feed the more milk you will produce and the less likely you will need to introduce formula. A breast feeding group will offer you great support.

Good luck

I wouldn't worry too much about giving expressed milk in a bottle messing up bf, I really don't think that it will. I bf all my 3 babies very successfully, but with all 3 of them I found the first couple of weeks painful and had cracked bleeding nipples. I don't really know why, i think that maybe it was because my breasts were very engorged, making the latch difficult in the very early days until my milk production settled down, but who knows - they all seemed to have a great latch and fed happily, but I was in agony in those first days. The only think that kept me breast feeding was expressing and giving the milk in a bottle - with DD1 I had to express and give bottle from one breast for about two days (no direct feeds on that breast during that time) until the bleeding nipple healed up. Anyway, it did no harm, within 10 days / 2 weeks each time the pain settled down and I didn't need to do it any more, although in practice since I was in the habit of expressing I continued to occasionally express and freeze some milk to build up a bit of a stock which meant that occasionally someone else could give a feed and my babies were always happy to take a bottle which was great.

I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames but has anyone suggested using nipple shields? You can buy them on amazon www.amazon.co.uk/Nipple-Shields-Breastfeeding/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A60206031&page=1

They are not too expensive - my daughter was tongue tied and i used them for the first 8 weeks of her life as this was the only way she could get enough 'nipple' into her mouth to latch properly. I had her tongue tie fixed (really very quick and not too traumatic when done by a specially trained Midwife).

I agree with others that you really need support in RL - someone who can loook at you at baby and how you are latching etc as position can make all the difference!

Also its a bit more expensive but you can also get the Medela bottle (reccommended by the Baby Whisperer books) amazon again www.amazon.co.uk/Medela-008-0112-Special-Needs-Feeder/dp/B000W728LA/ref=sr_1_35?s=baby&ie=UTF8&qid=1333310606&sr=1-35

Don't be put off by the fact that they are called 'special needs bottles'. They were designed for babies with cleft palattes and other feeding problems but are also brilliant for tongue tied babies due to the long teat. You can also alter the flow just by simply turning the bottle round whilst its in your babies mouth. Babies get a lot of cranial benefits and comfort from the sucking action especially in the early days and it might help if you feel you baby is guzzling the milk too quickly!

Sorry its such a long post but I really feel your pain - I know how frustrating it can be for both you and baby! By the way I breastfed my baby until just before her first birthday using a combination of expressed milk in the medela bottle and actual breastfeeding.

Wishing you the best of luck!!

Hi again

I tried the nipple shields but they were very awkward. The baby sucked on the teat and none of my milk came out. They're a devil to keep on the breast too while you're holding a wriggly baby and trying to keep your boob still so the shield doesn't come off. Perhaps you have to have really big nipples?!

Nelly you make me feel better about mixed feeding. I've gone two days without breastfeeding, just expressing and we've used a backup RTF formula because we visited some friends. One nipple feels fine, the other still feels a bit painful, but I'll try again tomorrow.

Ok, some thoughts:

BFing is sore at first. Get some nipple cream and apply it regularly, until you've established a good BFing technique. Perhaps use a bottle when your nipples are particularly sore for the time being. Rather that than give up entirely. Providing it's temporary i don't see the harm in giving yourself a much needed rest! My DS never suffered from nipple confusion (admittedly he was several weeks older before i introduced a bottle) and in fact he always seemed to prefer boob than bottle because it's as much about closeness and comfort as getting food. DS is definitely going to be a boob man when he grows up!

If you have a leaky boob it suggests it might be too full so your LO is effectively trying to latch onto a balloon. Try making it softer for her to get her mouth around by expressing a little before feeding her. Their mouths are so little at first that this can be a common problem.

My DS always fed better from my right boob than my left and thinking about it, it was because i'm right handed and held him more comfortably in my right arm. Just being slightly out of position at the start of BFing makes a big difference to how effectively they feed and how comfortable it is for you. Have you tried the rugby ball hold instead? It didn't work for me, but many women swear by it.

Do you use a BFing pillow? They're fantastic because they boost your LO to a high enough position that you're not straining your arm, or that she is straining to reach your nipple, meaning you can make sure she's in the right position and keep her there without fidgeting around. They make BFing soooooo much more comfortable. I'm assuming you're trying to do it in a calm, quiet, comfortable place until you get the hang of it?

If all of this fails, get someone to watch you (maybe even a friend who has gone through it recently) because nothing beats that kind of practical advice. There are lots of BFing support groups around and i would advise you to take advantage. Sometimes just knowing that other women are going through it can help.

Finally, sometimes there's a lot of pressure on women to BF and they feel like a failure if they can't. This is dangerous for both mother and baby. While i BF my DS for 9 months and loved it and would encourage you to stick with it a while longer, if it's just not working for you then don't be afraid to go onto bottles. I don't say this lightly, but a friend of mine really struggled with BFing and persisted. She didn't realise her baby wasn't actually feeding properly and was losing a lot of weight. She got more and more stressed about it until eventually the healthcare professionals realised and advised her to go onto bottles. She still feels guilty about the whole thing and it completely overshadowed her enjoyment of her DD in those early days. BFing evangelists will tell you to continue no matter what. But nothing is worth what happened to my friend.

I'm sure with a bit of practice (and advice from these boards) you'll be fine though. Good luck and congratulations on your gorgeous DD

Hi there, my story won't be much consolation at present but it hurt me (awfully) to bf for the first three months, and looking back I think my latch on was definitely wrong. It took someone (a HV) coming to observe me to sort it out. The incorrect latch on caused sore nipples, which caused recurring mastitis, so definitely try to get some help. I managed to get through it with heaps of lansinoh and nipple shields which I used for about 2 months. I also had to pinch my nipple to get my baby to latch on at all at first as my boobs were so full.

I used bottle and breast interchangeably (though more breast) and my baby was fine with both. I found expressing annoying though and was glad when at 3 months it became really easy. I am still bfing now and my DD is almost 2 :)

I hope that things get better. I really feel for you, bf is the hardest thing I have ever learned how to do.

Oh and congratulations!

I have to pinch my nipple to get it into the baby's mouth otherwise she just tries to suck on the end, which is useless.

After two days of bottle feeding I breastfed her last night. It took an hour because she was trying to suck as though from a bottle and could not latch on properly. I was about to get the bottle after about 30 minutes of trying because she was exhausted and crying her little eyes out and then she suddenly latched on and was instantly quiet.

I've breastfed her four times today, although only for about 5-10 minutes at a time. My right nipple still hurts a lot. Whenever she draws on it, my right leg squirms with the pain. My left nipple is a lot better, although because I've used that for all the feeds today, it's starting to get sore again. I've expressed twice and I'm dismayed that I hardly get any milk out now.

She was never satisfied after the breastfeeding, even if she fell asleep and slipped off the nipple, within moments she was crying and sucking her hand again. I have to admit that after the fourth time, when she was making really heart-wrenching sounds, I got the bottle out. She had the lot, despite the ten minute breastfeed earlier.

My boyfriend is trying to be supportive. He wants me to breastfeed but he can see that I'm getting stressed out about it and feeling guilty so he has told me that it's ok, that at least I've tried. The midwife said the same thing today.

I don't want to be one of those 'triers' I want to succeed.

Don't be disheartened. It sounds like you're doing great, and well done for getting her to breastfeed last night. As mentioned I also had to do the nipple pinch thing too. I also could only bf lying down, just couldn't get the position right. Do whatever makes it easier, including topping up with a bottle if you need to (whatever they say).

Also, my baby breastfed literally all the time at first, regardless of when her last feed was. When she was five weeks I sat down to feed her at midday and was still there at midnight - no joke. I resorted to a bottle a few times, but as mentioned it all sorted itself out at about 3 months. Hang in there! but don't beat yourself up about doing what makes it easier for you. Do you have an NCT breastfeeding counsellor number you could ring? I emailed mine in the middle of the night once and she'd rung me by 7am next morning, and I wasn't even a member of the NCT. Get all the support you can and good luck!

I don't know what the Swedish version of NCT is. It might be something called BVC, whatever that stands for. Because I don't really know who is supposed to help me with what (midwife? doctor? nurse? baby group? healthcare professional?) I don't make the calls I just talk to my boyfriend and he decides.

Most people have said that babies settle down after a couple of months and get good at feeding, so I'm holding out for that. As long as I offer the breast every day at least once (night time) there's a chance she'll get used to both methods of feeding, right?

It does take a long time for both of you to get the hang of it so hang on in there if you can. The thing that helped me was to focus on tummy to tummy (put baby's tummy against your tummy first) and to lean back as much as possible. I used to hunch right over baby desperately trying to get our aim and latch perfect but it was making us both really frustrated.