Unconditional parenting - anyone answer a few queries? (Long OP!)

[CarpeJugulum]

So, I think I'd like to become an UP.

DS is 18mo and I can feel myself turning into my DM. Now, I loved her dearly and I know she did the best job she could, but I have ishoos and I'd like for my DS to not need counselling. And yes, I'm also aware that I may mess him up in a totally different way, but at least I'll have tried.

I already know that I don't want to go down the time out, rewards etc (although I will retain the right to give chocolate buttons after injections!) route, and after reading a few books, I like the ideas in both Playful Parenting and the UP book - and I think they will mesh nicely together. I know DS is only little, but my thought is that if I start it now, then I will be better equipped to cope when the really complex stuff starts.

BUT as DS is only little, I'm a bit lost as to what I can say to him. For example, holding a crayon and then eating it will result in me asking him not to eat it, if he persists I'll ask if he's hungry and then go according to that - and if all else fails, we'll have a tug o'war for the crayon resulting in a tickling fest. So a bit of distraction, but nothing heavy.

However, he then doesn't eat the crayon (so I don't comment as per the book) but he doodles and then shows me the doodle - what do I say? UP book says to use statements - I think it says something about commenting on a part that's new to the child (drawing toes maybe?) but at age 18mo, saying I like blob you've drawn doesn't seem appropriate IYSWIM

So, how do you UP a non speaking (yet!) toddler?

What a lovely picture you've drawn - I can see a circle and a triangle and lots of wavy lines - you used lots of red - lets put it up on the fridge when you've finished - are you pleased with your picture? - mummy likes it very much...
(presumably the tone of voice is one of the most important parts with lots of praise?)

Yeah. This is where I'm getting lost.

Today we doodled a dot and a line. I think based on our discussions (or my talking and his babbles) it was meant to be a house based on what I'd drawn.

There's not a lot you can do there.

If I've read the book correctly, I can't say well done for getting it on the paper, or compliment the drawing but I have to say something like "that line is longer than the one you drew last time - but in an interested tone of voice.

What my brain is telling me I should say is something entirely different.

I did do a google search before posting because I didn't want to thread hijack with my ignorance, but it didn't actually answer my question - What is Unconditional Parenting?

I'm sure lots and lots of people on here will have UP'ed their small toddlers successfully, and i like lots of the concepts of UP

But IMVHO experience UP is just a little too, well, wordy for an under 3. All that "granting their wishes in fantasy", the descriptive and specific commenting on their behaviour, rather then simple praise, is a bit much for little ones. their receptive communication is just not sufficiently advance for those nuances. honestly, there are loads of ways not to fuck up your kids without tying yourself in knots adhering religiously to an ideal that you struggle to put into practice.

FeakAndWeeble You need to google Alfie Kohn's book Unconditional Parenting. Parents influenced by Kohn generally bring up their children without using a punishment or reward system i.e no time outs, reward charts, naughty steps. Kohn does use research to back up his ideas that punishment does not stop bad behaviour and that extrinsic rewards ( including perhaps controversially praise) do not work in the long term and both can lead children to believe that they are only loved by their parents when they are good or successful.

We did the no rewards no punishments things with ours when they were little....and now 5yo ds1 asks us to threaten to punish him if he doesn't do whatever he's been asked to do . Oh well.

Anyway, we used to just say things like, 'that's an interesting picture, have you done it all in red/blue/yellow?' (generally gets yes answer, or child reaching for a different colour to add in). Is it something big? or some such other inanities to engage with what he had done without evaluation.

We also used to ask was that hard? was that easy? did you enjoy doing that? and stuff like that.

But to be really honest, I think that 90% of what it was all about for us when he was little was working on ourselves and the way we felt, so that we were genuinely not evaluating him/judging him/comparing him at all at any point. It was bloody hard, but when we got it (and then lost it again a zillion times) something seemed to click and the whole relationship was much smoother.

Yes. It's the getting it now, so I don't have to get it when things do go wrong. Much simpler to start on simple stuff like stopping him climbing on a forbidden table now, then scale up.

Thing is, at this age, I do think that praise is important - I can see that when DS is older then discussing, rather than blind praise is a good thing; so "that's a nice picture, tell me about the xyz you've drawn" would work really well. At 18mo, I think it's over-reaching.

I may have to put UP on the back burner for a while - and stick with positive reinforcement for a while; I can see it's not ideal but better than shouty mum.

Oh, I'm trying to practice UP ways of speaking to my DS who is only 15mo. This is largely because I feel I need the practice - if I speak without thinking I fall straight into what-my-parents-used-to-say - rather than because I believe DS is a tiny genius following my every word. That said, I am a believer in speaking to him using 'ordinary' rather than artificially simplified language, even if it is a bit 'wordy' for some people's tastes.

Re the example that you give, I'd be like, 'oh, you've been drawing' or 'I see what you have drawn' or something similar if I had to speak but I do do a lot of smiling and radiating acceptance etc. if possible, and try to hold back on commenting on things I want him to formulate his own relationship with unless it's clear he wants some confirmation. IYSWIM. Have you checked out 'How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk,' OP? Lots of solid examples of useful ways to speak to children and further rationale as to why you might think carefully about it.

Good luck

Thanks Gilberte, will have a look

Carpe, have you look at Webster-Stratton's Incredible Years? There is a book, and lots of Children's Centres run parenting courses based around it. The techniques centre around the importance of play, and offer a really gentle, positive parenting style. Again, you don't have to sign up to the whole thing, but there's lots of good guidance there.

Re. the drawing/praise - I'd say tell him what you want to say, tell him what comes naturally to you, don't think you need to follow some sort of script - just don't use praise as reinforcement/manipulation.

sparkly haven't read that book, although it is on my list of things to read - when my local library gets it to me.

Will bump it up my list as DS not talking yet made me think it could wait a while!

vesela What comes naturally to some people is not always good though, if your parents raised you with shouting or inducing guilt / shame, you may find it hard to not just repeat this cycle as its the only kind of parenting you know. It takes some conscious effort to do things differently and find a way of behaving you are happy with.

OP, I think the advice to focus on their experience, feelings is a good one eg when they manage something the first time, "Oh wow, you must be proud of yourself." Ds is not so into drawing (except when I'm writing on the calendar and he wants to help) but I'd just describe it, "Ah a picture, lots of zigzags here I see. Do you like red then? blah blah"

Yep. That's the techniques I want to avoid. I do think shouting has a place, but not at 18mo when the reason I want to shout is him running away from me changing his nappy.

And yes, guilt is also something I want I avoid - I feel continually guilty if I sit down when DS naps (once I've finished my WAH job) as I was raised by my mum to view sitting doing nothing as lazy. I was often shouted at for reading if my room was untidy (by which I mean more than one book out rather than toys everywhere).

I want to be positive, approachable, and non-scary.

That is pretty much the goal I have too, Carpe. I want ds to please himself as long as he's not being unduly unfair to anyone else. I have spent my whole life trying to get my scary mother's attention and approval (and I think this has contributed to my pnd and ptsd since having ds). I want him to have his own life, not have me as some kind of shadow over everything.

Yes.

I want DS to have his own opinions and thoughts that can differ from mine - eg I'm a Christian, but if he wants to become a Hindu/ Buddist/ atheist than that is fine - with the hopeful proviso that he respects other people's point of view.

Equally, I intend to "make" him do things when he's young - for example I'd like him to attend Beavers and Cubs (spaces permitting) again provided he appears to be having fun - but once he's a bit older, it will be his choice whether he attends Scouts. But equally, if he makes the decision to attend, then he will go (unless ill) as that was the decision he made IYSWIM.

I think, the more I read, the more I'm going to just pick and mix techniques!

May I just say that you cannot "pick and mix" with UP and still call yourself a UPer and what you are doing will not be UP, either. Kohn is very specific about that, it's all or nothing. Anything less than full UP is not UP. You can adopt some of the UP ideas, sure, anyone can do that, but you will not be a UPer if you don't stick to the core principles quite strictly.

My comments in OP's drawing example (18m old) would be along the lines of "Is that your picture? You drew in red crayon, didn't you? You can use red crayon to draw on the paper. Do you want to try a different colour? Drawing is fun, isn't it?"

I agree with Ragged. But I don't think it really matters.

I don't refer to my parenting as UP as I have chosen to pick and mix as you put it. However, reading about the UP philosophy and thinking about what the UP approach to a situation would be (even if in the long run we choose a different route) has made me more comfortable with the way we parent than I was when I only had my own upbringing to refer to.

I suppose I've chosen to pick and mix too. I've read UP and I really liked it but as with any parenting book I think it's important to make it work for you and your family rather than over-thinking and worrying that you are doing it 'wrong'. Parenting is about relationships, not following the instructions of a book to the letter.

So take whatever ideas you like and try not to worry too much. You sound like you are very sensitive to your DS's needs and that you're thinking about the long-term effects of the methods you're using now- I'm sure he'll grow into a confident adult :)