Please Help - Utterly at a loss at how to deal with Hellish bedtimes with 4 and 5 yr old -

[Cloudbase]

Am a lone parent of DD5 and DS4. As we live in a 2 bedroom flat, they share a bedroom. It used to be fine, DS would go to sleep fairly quickly and DD would read for a while then go to sleep, but since DD has started school, bedtimes have turned into some sort of Hell Zone.

DD obviously finds it really hard to switch off since starting school and will go to bed, then get up, bounce around, maraud around the flat, sing songs, scream, yell, and do lots and lots of playacting in a hugely annoying American accent (I guess copied from Disney?). This is stressful enough but DS is now copying her. My mum sometimes comes over to help and when she does, I can I put them to bed in different bedrooms as they wind each other up, and this sometimes works (we sit with one each until they calm down). The thing is, separating them when it's just me, doesn't seem to work as they just try and run out of their rooms and find each other.

But tonight, they both screamed, threw things around, ran around, hid under furniture, turned lights on and off and were just absolutely out of control.
I've tried stickers, star charts, just plain getting angry , taking toys away, taking them calmly back into the room, all the things that are supposed to work. And they just don't seem to care. I've just taken 3 bags of toys and stashed them in my car boot (DS4 was bringing me toys to confiscate!) and also all their dvd's and have told them that until they behave at bedtime there is no more TV in the house.

I've also tried quietly talking to them, reading them children's meditation books, leaving them on their own...am completely out of ideas now.

Can anyone offer any other advice? Their dad isn't around as he is abusive - they were seeing him in a contact centre but he is now refusing to see them and DD is going to see a play therapist on Friday to try and help her deal with her emotions. I'm aware that this is a factor, but in the meantime, bedtime are just horrific.

I stood there this evening as they ran rings around me and laughed at me, and honestly thought "I genuinely don't know what to do". They don't seem to respond to any sanctions at all - we shall see how it goes with the tv, but if anyone has any wise words, I'm absolutely desperate and feeling totally helpless

Hello cloud you poor thing :( they are leading you a bit of a dance, aren't they?

OK, let's start with the obvious.

1. Are they getting enough exercise? I know it sounds daft, but at that age they need a STUPID amount of exercise, running about, walking to school, swimming lessons etc etc. FAR more than you could possibly think they could need.

1. Are they having anything sugary or caffeine (coke) near bedtime. Sugar hyped up my two a treat, and they were a nightmare. When I changed to no puddings, no snacks in the evening, just cheese, bread and butter or a banana, they calmed down.

1. This will sound bonkers, but what would happen if you just sat perfectly still and calm whilst they had a rampage (obviously, making sure they are not destroying anything/hurting themselves). If you sat on the bed/ sofa with a book, looking all cosy and cuddly and just calmly waited they would not have any very entertaining Mummy-reaction and might just calm down too. It worked with my DS when he was 3 or 4, just to stop talking, reacting or winding him up any more. It was very very hard not to react, but it did work.

Good luck with whatever you try, and remember the MN mantra....THIS TOO SHALL PASS :)

Totally agree with norks. I thought sugar control and excercise too. But also having a rigid routine. Bath at 6.30, milky drink, bed at 7.30, then you sit in the room reading aloud until they fall asleep. No questions, thats the routine. They'll soon look forward to that reading time. Start with The Wind In The Willows.

I have been reading the 1,2,3 Magic book so I will pass on what it says about bedtime messing around.

The first thing to do is head them off before they leave the room, apparently they get more pay off if they are able to wander round the house/get attention. You might need to spend a few evenings or a week with a chair parked outside their door and stop any attempt to come out. So they learn that you will not be a push over on this issue.

It also says no talking or communication, don't get drawn into any silly conversations or arguments, just keep putting them back to bed.

Have a regular bedtime (which is not up for negotiation), maybe put a timer on 30 mins before lights out and say once the timer goes it is time for in bed and being quiet. You say the problems started when your DD began school so perhaps she is overtired and needs an earlier bedtime at the moment?

You could also take away their light bulb/source or any lamps for a short time so they cannot turn on the light to play?

Lots of praise the next morning for a good nights sleep/not waking mummy etc.

Whatever techniques you try to use just pick one or two and stick to them, it will probably take awhile for anything to work.

I am sure it must be really difficult right now and I am not saying it is an easy fix but try to remember you are the parent and you have to take back the control or it will get worse.

Also I know with my DD that no TV/movies is a big motivator so start with a few days of banning that so they know you mean business.

Good luck and let us know how you get on :)

Agree with the others. Strict routine - bath at 6.30, milk, story. I would also sit quietly on the bed, read the story and not speak or react if they mess about - just stop reading until they settle. That way, they dint get any attention if they mess about.

I also have a no telly after tea rule, agree that lots and lots of exercise is important, and no sugar/chocolate is a must.

How transferable are they when asleep? Could you threaten to separate them and have one of them sleep in your bedroom - and be moved once asleep. Guess it would depend on whether they really like being together. Or whether then it'd just give you 2 places where they were bouncing around and the difficulty of getting them out of your room?!

Other thing...could you let your DS go to bed first and then allow your DD to stay up with you for 15min reading a story in the lounge/your bedroom (because she's a big girl) - but she only gets that privilege of staying up later if goes to bed nicely and quietly after the 15min are up.

Or put them both to bed earlier - and give them 15min mess around them but have to stay in bedrooms. But then lights off.

This will pass though - my DS found it much more difficult to switch off after starting school.

Hi Cloudbase.

Just an idea and must admit this a bit different from the other suggestions, but could an earlier bedtime (at least for your DD) help at all? I only suggest this because you say the problem has started since she's started school and I'm guessing has been more stimulated in the day and is basically more tired. But my two (and the oldest is only 4 still in nursery, so may not be 100% relevant) both find going to sleep a lot more difficult when they've got overtired. Then they both tend to the kind of craziness you are reporting

I realise an earlier bedtime for the older one and not the younger is going to be difficult, but might the younger one fall in line with an earlier bedtime too?

Anyway, just thought I'd add it to the mix in case it strikes a chord and might help. Good luck. I'm sure it will sort itself out before long but I feel your pain until it does....

Dont have the room too warm either, once you are tucked up in a cosy bed you want to stay there. Have the heating go off just before bedtime.

Thanks everyone for the fantastic advice - I was starting to feel like the world's worst parent and utterly useless. Sadly altering the bedtime doesn't seem to make any difference, and separating them just makes them fight (there is only 17m between them so on one level they think they are the same age!) but I will certainly try out the other suggestions and let you know how I get on.

I think having no-one to 'hand over' to when it all kicks off can make it seem harder, but tonight wasn't quite as traumatic as last night, although DD has only just dropped off - at least there was no drama and anger and it was all relatively stress free. I was determined to stay calm no matter what, and yes, it did make a difference.

DD off to see the Play Therapist tomorrow so hopefully if there are any underlying issues around her Dad, she will be able to start to work them out. In the meantime, thanks again for the kind and helpful words. HUGELY appreciated.

Hooray, cloud there you are. I thought you had been tied to the bedpost by your Dc and couldn't get to the computer :)

Well done staying calm, and I am so pleased it worked. Good luck tomorrow and keep in touch

I really feel for you.

things that have worked for us (with 8, 4 and 2 yr old sharing one room) are: taking them out for a run after school. children sometimes needing exercising like a dog i think.
DH works shifts so its often just me at bedtime
we now have a fairly rigid bedtime routine ( and im not a routine fan !). youngest goes up at 7 next at 7:20 then 7:40 each gets time to get ready for bed then story time. when i'm putting them to bed the others cannot interupt for attention. they play on binweevils whilst I'm doing the youngest one. I found that they didnt like "sharing me" at bedtime- they actually wanted one on one time for a story and a chat.

It seems you are already doing well by staying calm- they will eventually come round because of this

That's the thing - I feel as though they want me to split myself in two! If I try and put them down separately they fight for my attention. Tonight wasn't too bad as they both went to sleep quite quickly - I think the solution may lie in lots of activity plus me staying ultra calm, and continuing with the no tv for a while.

DD went to sleep much much more quickly than usual tonight, and I'm now wondering if she is actually much more sensitive to sound/light tv input than I thought? I tend to forget how easy it can be to completely overload them, and I think that might be what's happened with DD - she's processing new info at school every day and I think coming home to the tv is just getting her over-excited. Poor little thing can't switch off.

I'm going to turn our home into an oasis of calm and quiet, and see what difference it makes - but in the meantime, thanks again for your help and understanding - sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees so thank you for clearing me some space! Huge to you all!

I used to always put mine to bed together. Three of them, 3, 6 and 9 shared a room together for a few years (until the 9 yo turned 12). They all went between 8.30 and 9 and I would sit and read stories and say bedtime prayers with them until they were quiet. The two others were older and had a room each, plus more homework; and they had got out of the trouble at bedtime phase and were able to pretty much decide for themselves when to finish up and hit the hay (usually 9-10 but sometimes DD1 stayed up later with homework).

I always found that a bath or shower before bed would just wind them up, so that happened in the afternoon after school and a bit of running around, and at that time it helped them relax after what was possibly an intense day. We would have dinner after homework was finished, so 6.30-7 ish, and then help clear up together, followed by reading or some other quiet activities like a board game or two until bedtime, with plenty of attention from me. If they seemed a bit wired, I would light a candle or two.

They watched a bit of tv before homework but I found the under 6-7s were very prone to mimicking what they saw there and unable to distinguish reasonable behaviour from all that 'tude they saw on screen. The worst ages for that were 4 to 6, and they really seemed to completely lack any filter in their heads -- what went in came straight back out again. So I limited what they watched to strictly 'educational' programmes.

ExH was sometimes home but drank a lot and was no help really, and then he left so it was just me.