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Parenting

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Original poster

Harvard referencing ( again).........re ref and bibliography...help someone!!

25 replies

tiredemma · 30/01/2006 20:57

if i have put my references on, for my bibliography do i put the same books on or just additional material read but not referenced.

does that make sense?

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louli · 30/01/2006 21:01

i think you only put the ones that you are directly referencing from and specify the page numbers

mszebra · 30/01/2006 21:09

no, question doesn't make sense...
You should make a statement then cite a reference to back it up. And that reference goes in the bibliography. That's how it works. Maybe it depends on your application area, but in most academic writings you can't list things in your bibliography unless you've cited them specifically in the text as supporting something you've said or supplying a quote.

Ellbell · 31/01/2006 23:34

I agree. You definitely need to list all the books/articles/whatever that you've referenced directly on your bibliography (and if you're using Harvard that's where you put all the full info about publication date, publisher, etc.). If you have read other stuff which you haven't referenced directly but which you want to mention (e.g. because it has provided you with useful background info), I'd put it in a separate part of the bibliography with a heading of something like 'Additional Reading'. Might as well get some credit for it if you've read it! But if you just put it on the main list of the bibliography I'd want to know how exactly you'd used it.

HTH

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SleepyJess · 31/01/2006 23:40

Referencing is complete pile of timewasting bollocks isn't it! Sigh!

(Don't panoic Ellbell, all is well.. just referencing pees me off..!)

Original poster

tiredemma · 01/02/2006 09:37

sorry, i knew it didnt make sense but i was rushing to get assignment completed!!

in my reference list, I put everything that I had quoted in assignment.

on my bibliography list i put everything that I had read with regards to my assignment but not directly quoted.

but my question was, do i need to re-write the books that i used in my referencing- into the bibliography.

OP posts:

spacedonkey · 01/02/2006 09:49

tiredemma - here is a good, comprehensive guide to referencing using the Harvard system

HTH!

SleepyJess · 01/02/2006 10:29

What is a bibliography exactly..?

Marina · 01/02/2006 10:37

Good link SD, have just stolen it for my own professional usage...
SJ, a bibliography is a list of books read or referred to in researching a piece of coursework. As a librarian I tend not to agree that references are a load of time-wasting bollocks! Although a lot of the students I work with are right there with you on that.
Bibliography and referencing in your written work prove you didn't make the whole lot up, or get told what to write by A N Other

ScummyMummy · 01/02/2006 10:40

lol at references beiong time wasting bollocks! My referencing has been v skimpy of late, I must confess.

SleepyJess · 01/02/2006 10:49

Marina, but your description of a bibliography sounds the SAME as the references list. I am confused. Despite my irritation with referencing, I do it quite confidently and have never had any tutor comment about me doing it wrong.. and yet I am too thick to know what a bibliography is!

ScummyMummy · 01/02/2006 10:59

bibliography is the old fashioned term for reference list, it seems to me. My first degree wanted footnotes and a bibliography but this one asks for in text page references (Scummy, 2006:threadid=142308) and reference lists.

Marina · 01/02/2006 11:51

Sorry SJ, I think I misunderstood what you were asking then. The difference is that a bibliography can be a publication in its own right (oh yes, people out there compile them for pleasure and gain) as well as an integral part of a piece of written work.
Bibliographies that are published can simply be a list of monographs and articles on a subject, or what is known as "annotated", where the compiler has added some critical comments on the scope and authenticity of the work listed.
I trust everyone is still awake

spacedonkey · 01/02/2006 18:26

Eh? Whawozzat?

I thought a bibliography, in this context, was a further reading list. And the reference list was a list of works actually cited in your essay. Non?

Ellbell · 01/02/2006 20:11

sigh

See Marina's post below as to why references are not a load of time-wasting bollocks! Honestly, the youth of today... what are things coming to?

Those of you who are actually trying to write things with bibliographies/reference lists/whatever... You need to ask someone from your institution or department what exactly they want from you. Personally, I call the thing a bibliography, and would expect you only to list works cited, except if you'd used a particular work a lot for just background information, when you might list it as 'Further reading' as per my previous post. However, I don't use Harvard myself (it's a bit 'social science-y' isn't it?). Good old MHRA for me every time. And don't get me started on Chicago... how stupid are those conventions...?

[Ellbell realises that everyone except Marina has fallen asleep and shuffles off ]

Ellbell · 01/02/2006 20:12

Just to add, I would accept pretty much any variation on the bibliography/reference list/further reading list/whatever theme as long as the references are there, and in full. The main thing is to have references!

Marina · 01/02/2006 20:46

We are rock solid MHRA too Ellbell
Oh, everyone else gone?

SleepyJess · 01/02/2006 21:02

Ellbell you are being very scary and teacher-ish!!! [extremely scared-looking emoticon] What has come over you??

I DO do references and in full... and they are beautifully long winded.. you would be proud! (Athough I still reserve the right to call them 'time-wasting bollocks.. I am a second year part time degree student.. it is expected!!) ) But..... I was never asked to do a 'bibliography' *so far) and didn't quite know what there were. (Have to admit, still wouldn't say I am crystal about this! )

Oh well seeing as no-one is asking for a bibliography I s'pose it doesn't matter! It summons images of piles of dusty bibles to me! Silly word!

The OU use Harvard full stop I think

SJ x

(Ps You can take the girl out of the gutter and prod her forcefully in a degree-ward direction... but it seems you can't take the gutter out of the girl! )

Ellbell · 01/02/2006 22:13

Marina... I think I love you !

(Do you know... my boss has just written a chapter for a book on the history of punctuation... How fascinating is that? )

SJ... Please stop worrying about the bibliography! It's another word for a reference list or whatever you've been doing all along (and doing brilliantly... do I need to remind everyone about your results again?).

I am on a high, as I taught 2 groups of Year 9 pupils today and they didn't eat me alive as I had lain awake half the night worrying that they would. (I have never taught under-18s before!) In fact, they were great - interested, lively, funny (well, they laughed when I (a) tripped over the computer lead and (b) massively ripped the piss out of their teacher) and intelligent. I have quite had my faith in 'the yoof of today' restored and will jump on anyone who slags off adolescents in my hearing in future!

Ellbell · 01/02/2006 22:16

Just re-read previous posts from earlier today. You're right, SJ, I did sound a bit 'teacher-ish'!
I am never 'teacher-ish', even when attempting to be a teacher!

Marina · 02/02/2006 09:51

History of punctuation Ellbell now that is hardcore stuff
So have you hopped from HE to secondary then?
I can post links for postgrad courses in History of the Book/Historic Bibliography if you like SJ, I think you are protesting too much and love it deep down

yoyo · 02/02/2006 09:56

Hated cross-referencing Harvard when I edited for a living. Absolute nightmare. Good old numbering was so much easier.

SleepyJess · 02/02/2006 10:19

Thank you YoYo [smug emoticon]

Elbell why are you teaching secondary??! LJ is Y9! He would LOVE to be taught by you.. he thinks you rock! Not sure he would be that enthralled by Dante though! (Is that what you were teaching them???!!!)

And you are allowed to sound teacher-ish sometimes.. you are one! (I was quite impressed )

And thank you Marina.. kind offer.. but.. , I promise not to utter the word bibliogrpahy ever again.. (ooops) .. but Ellbell will tell you, I have to have something to stress about..

SJ x

joash · 02/02/2006 10:21

The bibliography should list everything that you have read whilst producing your work (regardless of if they are included in your other referencing or not)

Ellbell · 02/02/2006 16:27

No not teaching secondary. It was a 'Languages at Work' day, with loads of local Year 9 kids (I suspect hand-picked not to be too disruptive!) visiting the university. I did an Italian 'taster' session with them. It was great fun. Would have been sooooooo cool to have had LJ in my group, SJ!

Joash, long time no see... How's Camborne?

joash · 02/02/2006 23:04

Hi Ellbell - Camborne and Cornwall itself is FAB!!!! (age showing there again )

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