Help! Lots of conflict and stress with DP refusing to speak to dds only in his language

[Petisa]

Hello all,

I have an issue within my family that is causing a lot of stress and arguments at the moment.

To give you a bit of background, DP speaks Spanish and I speak English. We have 2 dds (3.10 yrs and 17 months). We lived in Spain until Nov 2010 and I spoke English to the dds and DP spoke Spanish (OPOL). In Spain, DP worked 6 days a week til 9pm and is much quieter than me, so dd1 had much more English than Spanish in Spain, but I wasn't worried as they would be speaking Spanish in nursery/school.

Then 14 months ago the girls and I left Spain to go back to the UK and live near my parents, as our business in Spain collapsed due to the recession. DP was offered a job in a different part of Spain and only speaks beginners English so he took the job and we spent a year living in different countries.

In that time dd1's English came on leaps and bounds and she now is in nursery school and speaks fluently. On the other hand she only knows a few words of Spanish and understands a few simple sentences. I tried to speak to her in Spanish during our year apart from DP but she always protested and I didn't want to put her off it. I had Dora dvds but couldn't afford to buy loads of Spanish dvds and books which are v expensive.

DP moved over to be with us here 2 months ago and we are planning to stay in the UK for the foreseeable future. He is keen to improve his beginner's English quickly and has already been offered a job starting next month [happy]

The problem is now he doesn't understand dd1 and she doesn't understand him much, and DP is solving that problem by practising his English on her. I have told him the importance of bilingualism, of always speaking to his dds in Spanish, of the fact that he is the only exposure they have to Spanish and so how important it is that he sticks to it, and that they wouldn't be able to speak to his brother or have a real feel for his culture if they didn't become Spanish native speakers, but he is not listening to me.

He says that he needs to learn English and that this is an opportunity to learn with his dds and that he won't do what I say and I can't control him. He says "What do they know?" if I mention experts or research. I've said it's selfish for him to put his needs to learn English before their opportunity to become native Spanish speakers, but that just puts his back up. I've said he's modelling bad English for them which is wrong, but he just says I don't care about him or want him to learn English and want to sabotage his attempts to learn. He says I should be doing more to teach them Spanish as I am a linguist. This makes me v cross as I have been doing everything alone (apart from the wonderful help of granny) while we've been apart, and when I tried to do anything in Spanish with dd1 usually she complained and I didn't want to turn her off it.

Apologies, this as turned into an essay! If you are still with me what would you do in this situation. I speak Spanish fluently, and have thought about speaking to my dds in Spanish only from now on, but I'm not sure I want to give up speaking my native language to my dds. And wouldn't it freak dd1 (3.10 yrs) out completely? Any time I try to speak to her in Spanish she protests. Maybe I could start speaking to dd2 in Spanish only from now on and dd1 might eventually join in?

I've bought a book for DP and dd1 to read with animals and they are reading it which is lovely and I could make sure any dvds we buy from now on are in Spanish but it is too little imo. DP is naturally quiet, he doesn't speak to the dds much when he gives them a meal or when playing, it doesn't come naturally to him to describe things, and he's not going to accept any advice or pointers from me. He's more into physical play, which is great, but it is very telling that he has never sat down with dd1 and taught her the animals or parts of the body or clothes or food in Spanish. I taught her the colours and numbers!! WHY wouldn't it occur to him to teach her words!? Isn't that what parents do?! Arrgghh!!!

Sorry for the rant but this issue is causing a lot of stress and conflict in our family, which is stressed enough as it is, what with DP having moved here away from friends, in house all day after a long separation, not working yet, not speaking the language, etc etc. Help! Any advice greatfully received!

I think you should stop being so bossy.

Your children's father speaks Spanish, and so do you. There is ample opportunity for your girls to pick up Spanish once your husband has settled more and picked up more English.

I think his need to speak English at this stage FAR outweighs your desire to have the girls be bilingual. If you're so bothered, YOU teach them Spanish! Right now, your husband is trying to learn to communicate in a fi=oreign language in a foreign country!

He's not your employee, he has needs to and I think you would do well to mind them right now, instead of making it all about what YOU want.

I think learning another language is very very important, but at this stage your husbands needs come first.

*Pictish
it's not AIBU, you know!

OP - very, very tricky

I will be back anon, got to collect the DC but will mull it over.

I know it isn't.

The OP seems to be utterly hellbent on the girls being bilingual and doesn't appear to give a fig that her dh might be struggling, not being able to speak English. He probably feels that the sooner he can communicate with others where he now lives, the better, and that the girls being bilingual comes second - and I would have to agree with that.
He obviously feels that practising speaking English with his daughters helps him in some way, and the OP should accept that and let him get on with it for the time being.

The girls will definitely learn Spanish easily a bit later on.

I think languages are really important, and can totally understand the OPs desire to nurture the girls being bilingual....I really can....but I think she is placing that desire as being higher in priority than her husband's needs as someone who can't speak English, even though he now lives here.

I don't think it's a case of anything other than priorities.

How stressful for you, Petisa.

It's a tricky situation as your DH seems to have got very defensive about this and his language. This might be due to all the stress he (and you all) have been through in the past year. He is quite likely feeling a lack of confidence in his English and that, together with the move and the fact he's not working yet atm, is a recipe for a short fuse and a refusal to listen to you even though what you say makes total sense and is the way forward.

By the way you've described his present attitude towards this issue, I think anything you say/do will be taken as negative/bossy/controlling/mala onda by him I can't think of something I'd do in your shoes but to try and talk to him about it... it seems he's built up a virtual iron shield and won't have any of it, though.

I haven't been very helpful, sorry I'll keep thinking of better suggestions, and I'll ask DH for ideas as well.

Thanks everyone, I accept all opinions, even if I'm being told off - that's why I asked!

But pictish, how is there ample opportunity for the dds to pick up Spanish later on? Isn't there a window of opportunity so to speak for a child to become a native speaker that later closes? Wouldn't it be more difficult later on?

Really appreciate the comments, please keep them coming

Are there relatives living in Spain who can send books/magazines to your DDs more cheaply than trying to source spanish material in the UK?

Are there any Spanish websites the equivalent of CBeebies, which your children could have safe access to? Or even the equivalent of iPlayer which might let them watch some Spanish children's programming?

Sorry - not really helping the basic problem.

Petisa we moved back from Spain in October last year. DD3 is almost 3 and was pretty fluent in both Spanish and English (I am English). We always spoke English at home but she was at Spanish playgroup.

Since coming back I have tried to spend half the time talking to her in Spanish (I am fluent too), figuring that even some is better than none. I am looking for a Spanish au pair/babysitter to perhaps spend a couple of afternoons with her a week speaking on Spanish as I agree with you that it would be such a shame to lose her bilingualism.

I haven't bought any specific DVDs/CDs for her, other than the Dora/Diego/Disney crap that she had in Spain anyway and she (so far) is retaining most of her Spanish.

I can see it from your DH's point of view - he obviously needs to really brush up on his English, so I would just leave that until he's got a good fluency in it. Speak to your DDs in Spanish as you're pottering about and I think you'll find that they'll just get so used to it without noticing.

Certainly when we're out doing a food shop my DD automatically asks for almeja/berenjena/naraja etc etc as those are what she's used to, so we tend to do our shopping in Spanish just to keep basic vocab flowing. I find myself thinking in Spanish at lot of the time, to the point that I was really struggling to remember what the fuck monkfish was called in English the other day!

Petisa- This is a bit rushed as I haven't much time.

I agree with the OPOL thing and we did this ourselves at home.

I agree with your point that having your children hear poor English from their Dad isn't good for their language development. I do, though, appreciate the difficulty for him learning English as an adult and his desire to practice in an enviroment he is comfortable in. You and he do need to agree on a way forward and perhaps now is not the time to do what is ideal (OPOL) so that he has time to settle into his new situation and build back up his relationship following the separation from living apart.

If your dd1 protests whenever you speak Spanish to her then you've got a choice, I guess, of either only speaking English to her (and dd2) or speaking English to dd1 and Spanish to dd2 which dd1 will pick up on when she is in the same room.

I don't know if that helps at all but good luck with it.

I would imagine this is all quite difficult for your DP...being away from his family for a year, moving to a new country, starting a new job...Is it not possible for you to speak to the children 100% in Spanish, leave them to reply in whatever language they like, and let your DP speak to them in English? It should be really easy for them to pick up English from family, friends, nursery, etc. so you can concentrate on the Spanish and your DP can have a bit of space to figure out how he wants to interact with your DCs.

I think it would help if you could all relax a bit and remember that when it comes to language acquisition, as with most questions of childrearing, it's not a question of absolutes but of shades on a spectrum. And that you usually have time: something you do with a child of 3 doesn't have to the same way when the same child is 5 or 7.

Yes, it may well be more difficult for your child to acquire certain aspects of Spanish after her early teens- but we are talking about more difficult, not about impossible.

You have to weigh that against other aspects of what is good for your family, for instance your dh's fear of not coping in his new country and the risk that your children will grow up thinking of bilingualism not as something fun but as something that causes conflict.

Your dh doesn't seem very well up on child education and that is a pity, but that is the family your dds have: they have to live with that (and it's not so terribly dreadful imo).

I am just wondering if you could get better results by working out some kind of deal with your dh: I support you now, you support me later.

As far as I am aware even the most fervent believers in windows of opportunity don't set it as early as the age of 4 or 5- which would still give you time to let him settle in and then switch languages.

I would also say that in the long run, just speaking to daddy may well not be enough for your dds to want to remain bilingual: you should be looking at introducing other language sources as well- Spanish playgroup, visits to Spain or whatever.

You really need to give your DH a break. You have been apart for a year & he is settling back into the family.

The 2 years DD1 has had of learning spanish aren't lost, they are just dormant. Having all the children's TV/Magazines/books in spanish is a good idea whilst things are settling down.

Why not have a discussion, along the lines of you will use English at home for the next 6-12 months to help your DH settle into the UK. After that why not move to Spanish as the "family" language (in 12 months DH should be dying to speak some spanish!) and go back to OPOL.

OK everyone thanks for the great advice, I understand I do need to chill out and give DP a break. It has been hard on him and on all of us, this last year. I think we're all coping pretty well, given the circumstances.

Today I noticed dp making much more of an effort to speak to the girls in Spanish only and we had a (relaxed, friendly!) chat and decided that when we are both alone we will speak in English only to give him a chance to practise, but with the girls he will continue to speak Spanish. He acutally said if we were all to speak English all day it would be too much and his head would explode so he's happy with the arrangement. So hooray!

What I'm not sure about now is what to do myself. I am reassured by your comments on the "window of opportunity" cory (I was hoping you'd contribute to this thread ) but I also do wonder about how willing a 5 - 9 year old would be to suddenly start communicating with me in Spanish after years of speaking English, and I agree that my dds will need more than just talking with their dad to keep up the Spanish. I don't really want to give up speaking to my dds in English all together, but was wondering if it would be a good idea to speak to them some days in English and some in Spanish? Does that sound crazy? Maybe it could work if I'm consistent with it? I wonder if it would confuse my dd2 if I were speaking to her one day in English and the next in Spanish? Is it bad for dc to hear 2 languages from one parent? How do you do it AuntingCarse?

I forgot to mention I live in a rural area so no Spanish people around! I have decided to spend a small amount each month on Spanish books and dvds to slowly build up our collection. All the books and dvds we have are in English because in Spain the idea was to "defend" their English but it's the reverse now! So dd1 is a huge fan of CBeebies but I will wean her onto Pocoyo and Dora in Spanish. And it will be Spanish In the Night Garden for dd2 .

I've read a few recent threads and I notice some posters switch between two languages with their dcs just when they feel like it during the day, and it seems to work out fine? That would be great, maybe it would suit our family to do this?

Does anyone know of a bilingual families website that they particularly like or would recommend?

Many TIA!

Petisa - I literally just chop and change between Spanish and English with her. More than anything it keeps me up to speed as well. I find it's easiest (for me) to use Spanish when we're out and about, as I mentioned before, when we go to the supermarket, or any shopping really, I talk to her in Spanish - asking her to get me things etc, looking at and naming things as we potter about.

Her speech in both languages is fine. She's totally flexible between the two and will switch instantly most of the time. Like me, she often can't think of the English word immediately, so will say it in Spanish before remembering.

We have a deli close by that is owned and run by two Spanish ladies, so we go in there when I've picked her up from nursery school and they know to and do talk with her in Spanish - she automatically walks in saying 'Hola, que tal' and they think her 'slang' words (ha' luego y aios - as she says them) are rather endearing.

Hi Petisa
I posted earlier when I was rushing out and have been mulling over your situation all day off and on.

No doubt you are in a tricky situation.

A few thoughts:

-- I personally don't know any bilingual / bicultural families for whom it has been an easy, seamless ride. Raising bilingual kids can take forethought, parental effort, economic investment, economic sacrifice (i.e. Minority parent becoming SAHP to ensure maximum exposure) in many different configurations depending on the family. I am now a SAHM and we spend every holiday in the minority language country. Not things I ever envisaged before becoming the parent of bicultural kids.
Likewise, children can reach the age of 5 or 7 or 9 and speak really well, but that's not to say there have not been hiccups on the way where the kids' language development appeared to stall completely in both languages / they were at a disadvantage starting school as they spoke the minority language better / conflicts with parents over usage of minority language etc. etc.

All that to say, raising a bilingual kid beings a new set of challenges.

-- I believe very strongly in the benefits of bilingualism on an intellectual level but more than that, emotionally, I want and need my children to speak my language and that of my family. BUT, I also believe that family harmony and happiness is more important. There's no point having bilingual children whose parents argue constantly about bilingualism and how to achieve it! There's no point torturing a shy, withdrawn child by speaking the minority language to him in social situations which will cause him to be centre stage.

Life first. Bilingualism is a bonus.

-- third, there are many levels of bilingualism: balanced / passive / verbal only....you might dream of your children effortlessly conversingin English and Spanish and whilst this is not an impossible goal, a more achieveable and yet very beneficial target would be passive bilingualism (ie they understand but do not speak Spanish) as this can often be transformed into active bilingualism with some effort in adulthood or teenage years. OR, your kids might be able to speak good Spanish but make shocking grammatical errors in written Spanish. Whichever comes to pass, they are still enriched by being bilingual / bicultural so don't worry too much today about an outcome which will not be clear for another 15 years or so.

So, now to your specific situation. Yes, you can start speaking Spanish to your kids. It doesn't have to be a binary equation: all or nothing. You can speak some Spanish, some English. If you are having an emotional conversation, you might find it easier to stay in English but for simple instructions, day to day stuff, table talk etc., you can go to Spanish with no problem. You might not find it easy at first, but you need to do whatever mental gymnastics required to normalise it for yourself and then it will be become normal for them. Whatever minor grammar mistakes or accent you have will not be serious for them, they will at least be getting exposure. Remember that if you stay in the UK, your kids will speak English so you can afford to back off the English in favour of Spanish.

If you are speaking Spanish without it being a big deal, I guess your husband will follow suit at least some of the time. You can make Spanish the home language with a bit of effort on your part and then a bit of patience as he starts to feel at home speaking Spanish. I would not pressure him nor raise it as a big issue with him. I would mention in passing that I was going to switch to Spanish with the DC to help their Spanish but not go i to detailed explanation, if, as you say, he's not in to the pedagogy stuff.

I would go hardcore with books, DVDs and CDs. All Spanish. All the time. :)
Doesn't have to be too expensive. Buy second hand, advertise in local papers, visit local libraries, buy off eBay, get deals off Amazon, ask relatives etc. At the age your DC are, they tend to prefer the same stories and DVDs ad nauseaum anyway. Nursery rhymes, songs, stories on CD are great for building interest in the minority language.

Make visits to Spain / visits from Spanish relatives a financial priority. Although I do appreciate you have been through some economic turmoil.

I think I would take the softly, softly approach with your DH. Start with the things you can do, some ideas per above and he will see some gradual changes. Once he sees the DC understanding more Spanish, i hazard he will be more relaxed to speak to them.

Off to bed. What a rambling essay. I have a 5 year old who speaks and reads the minority language at above native level and the majority language at slightly below native level and a 3 year old who also speaks the minority language above native level but does not speak a word of the majority language and has very limited comprehension. Just saying that from the outside, it looks great and we get loads of "oh, aren't they lucky" comments from random strangers but it is rarely a regular, geometric progression and more of a series of stops and starts, bursts and pauses of acquisition which we hope will come out OK in the wash!

Petisa, you have a PM.

So sorry I haven't answered your PMs until now Gauchita, I haven't been online today until now - girls keeping me busy!

AuntingCarse - Wow, your dd sounds wonderful chopping and changing languages! I would love to hear her in action, it sounds v relaxed and fun.

My dd1 just says "No Spanish, I don't like Spanish" or "Papa speaks Spanish" or shouts "Speak English!" at me. In saying that, I only started yesterday really and I'm just talking away to dd2 most of the time in Spanish and I know dd1 is listening in and hopefully will want to join in too. In the year we were apart, any time I tried to speak Spanish to dd1 she shouted no so I didn't push it. She always enjoyed learning new Spanish words and repeating them but always hated me actually speaking to her in sentences in Spanish, so I'll take a softly softly approach with her.

Greythorne - thanks so much for all your advice and reassurance! You're right, a happy family is so much more important than perfectly bilingual children. I guess I just thought strict OPOL was the ONLY method possible and that it wouldn't be a good idea for me to speak Spanish too and so I'd got my knickers in a twist (a tendency I have) that it wasn't going to work out and that the dds and dp were never going to be able to communicate properly. I'm really happy to discover I can speak Spanish to the girls and I'm looking forward to it, I think it'll really help them along with learning it and it'll be fun too. Hard work too though! DP and I have agreed to speak English to each other when the girls are in bed so everyone is happy.

I studied Spanish to postgrad level and lived in South America and Spain for quite a few years so I am pretty fluent (not nearly as fluent as I should be imo!) and my accent is quite good, so that'll help. Mind you, today I couldn't work out whether you say Mama Perro or Mama Perra - can anyone tell me which it is?? And how do you say "there there"?

I've found Amazon Espana (don't know how to do accents) and have bought some Pocoyo in Spanish, also have Dora and a couple of Cantajuegos DVDs and am planning to get more stuff. We don't have any family in Spain to visit or to send us stuff - dp is from Argentina and his parents have passed away, and his brother can't afford to visit much. However, we do have friends in Spain that might like a visit, or even to exchange dc for a few weeks in the future.

I'm glad to hear things have chilled out a bit

I have to say, this thread has been a total eye-opener to me. We are raising DS to be bilingual French-English but tbh we are being kind of laidback about it. We're doing English inside the home, French outside (live in France). I guess this isn't the recommended way? But it worked very well for a few friends of ours and it's pretty easy.

DH is fluent in 3 languages despite only ever speaking French at home. He learned English very young in school in Africa and German when they lived in Germany later on (his mum is German too). He hasn't always been trilingual but that early exposure meant that he could develop his skills later in life.

I studied French for 2 years in primary school and then never spoke it again, but I still found it really helpful when we moved here last year. There were certain sounds I could make that Americans generally have a hard time with for example.

So there's definitely many paths to multilingual. Try not to worry too much!

Hi found your thread when I was looking for information about buggys, but wanted just to add to all the good advice you have received. Just from my own experience of living in a trilingual family here in UK with Italian DP and myself Swedish. We have two minority languages spoken at home and me and DP use English so kids picking up English mostly from nursery/school and from our conversation with eachother. If someone would hear our family conversations they would be utterly confused by the constant changing of languages, when you are together with others you always have to decide what language to use. However difficult it can be you will find system that works for your family in the end and this ends up being natural to you. I do really think languages are important and would not want to have spoken a second language (ie English) to my ds and dd since it would limit my emotional link with the language and also its a way for me to keep up my own mothertounge as its minority lang. I do agree alot with Greythorne in that its not an easy option to have a bilingual/trilingual family and its not a straight development, you never know the outcome you just have to stick to your guns and hope if you do what your convictions tells you it will work out well. Every family is different so you will have to just find what works for you and don't be too hard on yourself! I have many friends living in intercultural familys but only speaking the majority language, this seems to be most common alternative, that the partner of minority language uses the native language (mostly this is true for mums of different nationality I have noted) for different reasons and these kids are anyway growing up with 2 cultures but he language will have to be learned later on, its not the end of the world it depends what you have to prioritize as a family. Good luck for the future!

If you can bear to buy Disney DVDs they tend to have a Spanish soundtrack as standard (though do check on the back of the box first as there is no rhyme or reason to which language they feature) so you get, effectively, a DVD you can watch in boh languages.

I feel your husband's pain, but don't actually think he is being fair on your children or himself - learning a language from children who are themselves are learning is a rubbish idea, frankly - especially as they are bilingual, which means that there may be Spansih interference in their English which he (as a Spanish speaker) won't spot.

How about English becomes the language of the family EXCEPT between him and your children? You and him speak to each other in English exclusively, meaning he gets to practise with a sympathetic native speaker; you speak to the children exclusively in English, which means he gets to listen and learn that way; but he speaks to them in Spanish, which is less stressful for him and them, and no bad habits are passed in either direction.

I'm sure you've thought of this anyway, but worth a(nother) try?

dreaming one in one out will work if you're certain you'll be spending your life there and the DCs will definitely be in French school, doing French activities etc. It's also possible to do OPOL with minority language in the home as the family language and various other permutations. The key is balance and that can change over the years.

OP I'm glad it's working out for you!

Glad things are calmer. Will look into some magazines and stuff for you. I think there there would be ya, ya or ya está ya está in a soothing voice and I'd say mama perro sounds better to me but might be wrong.

Aw thanks pipoca. Yep, that's what I say, ya, ya or ya está. Colombians say "ya fue" which I always liked.

Gauchita I pmed you. And thanks so much for being lovely

Fraktal thanks!

MIFLAW there'll be no princessy stuff in this house at least while I can fend it off but I will look into some of the other films! I've decided to speak Spanish quite a bit to the girls too as I think even if dp did speak only in Spanis, it still wouldn't be enough exposure imo. I didn't realise it would be ok to chop and change in both languages to my dds, I thought it was a big no-no but from this thread and others here I realise many do it successfully. As a result I've noticed dp speaking mostly in Spanish to the girls too and when we're alone we speak in English and as he's a beginner that seems to be enough hard work for him for now!

Calypsosmama thanks for your advice and telling us about your experience as a trilingual family - wow!

Dreamingbohemian thanks yes I'm more chilled out about it all now, thanks to you all!

Petisa, I second Pipoca. At home we say "bueno, ya está, ya está".

I'll PM you in a little, DS is feeding and I'm typing one-handed

Also when DS is comforting DD when she cries he tells her "ya está, no pasó nada/no pasa nada". v cute I like ya fue a lot, sort of gives the idea all the nastiness is over! I think it's the right decision to speak Spanish to them. DS only hears English from me (and mum) and it's become clear that Spanish is going to be much more dominant cos his whole life is in Spanish. I'm really doing my best to "defend" the English but it's hard work. Trying to speak English to DH in front of DS where I can too, just to increase the exposure.
Is there anything useful on the RTVE Clan website www.rtve.es/infantil/ maybe, I think there are some videos and some games, not sure how age appropriate or how good they are. Also does DD1 like Charlie and Lola? Have seen a magazine based on it in eci..will have another look for you. What stuff does she and DD2 like in English and I'll keep an eye out in Spanish. (All our stuff pretty much without exception is English).