Uncondicitional parenting: come and heklp please before I start going mad

[MsBakingCakes]

DD (2.5years old) is driving mad at the moment. I know her behaviour is completely normal but I am not sure how to deal with somethings and all the advice that I am getting is to put her the "time out" step which I am not very happy about it. So here goes what is going on and see if you can help us please:

1. This morning was time to get dress to go to pre-school (which she loves by the way). First she started saying that she didn't want the t-shirt that I had brought down for her to wear. Fair enough she choose the one she wanted. Then as I told her that she was going to get dress in 5 minutes and started to count down she started shouting (very common lately) YES - NO. First no to get dress and I told her "ok when you are ready let me know" then straight away she said yes and I said "ok then". Then was no again and yes and so on. She then started shouting "look at me" when I was sitting just opposite to her and looking at her. At the end I told her that once she decided what she wanted to let me know and I when to another part of the room which it didn't help. I really don't know where the problem was this morning and my partner either. Any ideas? This type of behaviour has become very normal lately where she shouts no nd then yes and then no again and it does not seem to be an end to it.

1. Shouting: she has started shouting a lot and in a very rude way. I have explain her that we do not talk like this in this house (I am separated from her dad) and that is not acceptable but she keeps shouting back at us NO. Any ideas of how to stop the shouting?

I ope all these make sense . I just don't even know how to put in words the behaviour we are having at the moment but I do consder it to be totally unacceptable and I want it to finish.

Thanks in advance

I found that at 2.5 you can't rationalise with them very often, and you can drive yourself nuts just trying. I could tell you some lovely Disney Pixar story backed up by a manual about how I dealt with it constructively in an affirmative style, but it wasn't like that. :) I have strong recollections of simply strong-arming DS into clothes or whatever it was we had to do - not talking, not rationalising, not threatening time-out (like they care) not giving him choices etc. If it had to be done, I'm bigger/stronger than him. So we did whatever it was, he didn't like it, and that had to be that. Any shouting, tantrumming or rudeness and aside from a very firm 'stop that now', I largely ignored him completely (sometimes transferring him to shout in his bedroom where I didn't have to listen to the racket) until he was pleasant again. Any interaction just prolongued it. Eventually he decided there was little point creating if no-one's taking any notice.

Thanks CES. I had to dress her in the same way today and I do not like it at all as well as DD does not like it either. But I didn't have any other option as we were late for school.

I just don't like the idea of having to do things this way and that is why I am trying to see what other parents do in similar situation.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us

No-one likes doing it, I'm sure. But needs must when you've got the equivalent of an untrained labrador on your hands. What I found was that the ability to rationalise increases rapidly between ages 2 and 4. That whole toddler yes/no thing and the irrational obstinacy/contrariness (dead normal) eventually dies down and you can have proper conversations about cause and effect. There comes a day when you can say .... I don't like getting cross, you don't like getting cross, so why don't we work something out where no-one gets cross?... and things go more smoothly. But it's not age 2.5.

I could have written your post - DD is 2.6 and sounds very similar. I too dislike naughty steps and timeouts and am certain that in our case they would prolong/ exacerbate problems so I won't do them. I do, however, put her in a different room if she hits the dog (always jealousy/ attention - I remove her while I treat him, then return to her quickly).

Anyway, I haven't any advice, just wanted to say you're not alone, neither with the behaviour nor wanting to avoid timeout. We had the most spectacular tantrum yesterday and she was so desperately upset that I couldn't imagine trying to put her on a step or isolating her. She was still talking about it at bedtime, so it obviously affected her and I was glad I'd just spent time helping her calm down.

I'm making sure I leave lots of time to get dressed on the days it matters - tomorrow is a work day and I'm planning on getting her dressed before breakfast as she likes to play afterwards rather than co operate with me. I do have to sit her on my knee and wrestle her into clothes sometimes.

If I ever raise my voice - rare, and usually dog abuse related as I hate her trying to hurt him, and she knows this of course - she will invariably shout back, louder. So I know it's a technique that just would not work with her. I'm a teacher and can generally silence a recalcitrant 10 year old with a look, but none of it works with DD!

Have you read 'Playful Parenting'? I guess you probably have. I'm going to have a re-read I think.

Flashpoint for us now as I have to wake her from a nap to go out. I won't be popular!

Thanks belindarose. How did you deal with the tantrum yesterday? How did you help your DD? Our DD had an epc tantrum a month ago and it was very difficult to help her calm down. We jst had to wait until she was ready which took more than an hour before she wanted a hug or even us talkng with her .

I am just not sure how to react sometimes to some of the situation we are having. What do you do when your DD starts shouting at you? I explain her that that is not a way of talking but it does not seem to work. A well as explaining her that I do not like it. It just seems that at the moment nothing is working.

Thanks for your comment. I know it is a normal behaviour but it is always nice to know that other people are going through the same

I picked her up at first, but she was attacking my face, so realised that wasn't going to work. But she was throwing herself and everything else around so I bundled her up and put her on her cot bed. She calmed down and lay with her blanket, sobbing, while I sat nearby. I think she wanted to sleep but wasn't able to. After a while she wanted to come out so played imaginary games in her room by herself while I stayed there. She was talking to her imaginary friends about crying and being cross, so I left her to do it alone. Took about an hour altogether before she came for a cuddle and wanted stories.

Re: shouting and whining, I'm saying that I don't understand when she talks in that voice, or that it hurts my ears and I can't listen to it or something similar. She usually modifies how she talks to me then. If it's just shouting in temper it's usually very brief and I ignore it or say that we don't talk like that/ don't talk to our friends like that. It hasn't sunk in, but it probably takes years!

On a good day I might pick up an item of clothing and say silly things like "Ah, tights! Perfect for Mummy's head now, what shall I do with this dress? Is it my dress? I really like it. I think I can just squeeze into it... " etc. Usually recalcitrant toddler will soon come over demanding to have their clothes put onto them immediately.

On a bad day I look grumpy, shout "stop it" and strong-arm them into their clothes screaming. .

it is a relief that I am no the only one that every once in a while I have to wrestle in her clothes .

Belindarose: we co-sleep so no chance on putting her in her bed although I have realised that when she has a big tntrum she wants to lie down and cover herself with a blanket. DD speaks three languages or at least is learning them so I do not think telling hee that I cannot understand her would be a good idea. However I sed before "it hurst my ears" when she was screaming and it seems to work so I will keep using it. I will also try to get her dress when we wake up in the morning and see what happens.

Any other experience welcome

I have an impossible-to-reason with 13mo (it's not that he's especially unreasonable, you understand, it's obvs his age) and am all UP in my tendencies (I weave lentils in my spare time). I second the playful silliness - we have an actual no-no-no/ yes-yes-yes game we play - I am usually able to dress him/ pop him in a high chair during it or as soon as the moment of conflict has past. In moments where he is really just not having it, but we are going to be late for a train or whatever, I do dress him as he resists but I am careful to acknowledge his distress ('you're very cross about this! I can see!') so his whole experience of whatever it was he wanted to do/ not do is not simply steamrollered over IYSWIM. Playful Parenting is a nice book for silly strategies.

did she have to get dressed right then?
could you have put her in the car in pjamas and taken clothes and got her dressed at pre-school?

did she have to go to pre-school?

if you had to get her dressed and she had to go, I would have got on with something completely different until she was ready. memories like goldfish.

i also shamelessly bribe, beyond belief. if you get dressed i will get you a treat for the car. not brilliant, but it does tend to work.

with the tantrums, i think belindarose has got it spot on. let them get on with it. it's anger and frustration, and it needs to come out.
somebody once told me that depression is anger turned inwards, so if the dc want to scream, cry and shout, the best thing to do is let them, and not to feel guilty in any way. you can't fix everything.

I really agree with leaving more time to get dressed. Try to make a morning routine which starts at least an hour before you leave and make sure one task is done before the next begins, with the last one bei for something nice so it acts as an incentive to complete the others quickly. So, get dressed, then teeth, then breakfast, then playing or tv before leaving. Controversially I find tv invaluable in the morning as DS knows we leave when Big and Small finishes,and will voluntarily turn it off. It's really hard for them to understand or judge time, so being able to gauge timing of events by markers like this really helps them.

With shouting, it's worth looking at your own behaviour when you shout (we all do!) - what are you modelling? I found it really helped when I made an effort to catch myself shouting, take a deep breath and stop, apologise for shouting, wait for DS to calm down so he could listen, and then explain what I wanted calmly. Also if I didn't catch myself but he said "stop shouting mummy" to do the same thing and squash the temptation to shout back "do as you're told then!" (or whatever). I found after a few times of this he responded by listening to me when I asked him to speak nicely AND he was making an effort to control his own shouting.

Am on phone, will move on to computer, just a sec.

The one I struggle with most is leaving enough time to get dressed. DS is 3.4 now and I still find it hard on non-nursery days, I leave it until the last minute and then panic, and yes, shouting, bribing and arm forcing happen. (Although he's big enough and strong enough that arm forcing is difficult and more likely to hurt him - another good reason to try and break the cycle!)

When you're running late, they seem to pick up on your stress and react more to it, you're more likely to then panic and react in a way which makes them kick back and dig their heels in more, getting stressed because you're thinking "This would take 5 minutes if she would just co-operate!!" rather than remembering she's two and so unlikely to always co-operate, having the patience and time to react in a playful or other diffusing way which although it might take 10-15 minutes, is still quicker than getting into an argument about it.

I sympathise as it's really hard dealing with mornings on your own, especially if you've had interrupted sleep during the night or other broken sleep patterns (I often fall asleep with DS and then wake up and am up until really late) - patience is often hard to come by. The calmest mornings were when I got up before DS but this isn't always possible if you have an early waker.

If you don't want to use TV, I still recommend having some kind of fixed point as a marker for leaving - perhaps it would be worth setting an egg timer, or if you have to leave at e.g. 8.30, get a digital clock and cover up the last digit so that she knows when it is showing an 8 and a 3 that it is time to go. Warnings of "5 minutes" are really meaningless to them. It helps to explain it in terms of events, so "Mummy is just going to go to the toilet, and then it is time to get dressed." or "You can put that marble down the track three more times, and then we have to get dressed."

If she's shouting at other times, not due to anger but just due to impatience, habit, or perhaps mild irritation that you're not jumping immediately to her every whim - again, try to squash the urge to shout back yourself, and do a variation on the not understanding thing, I tend to say "I don't like being shouted at. It hurts my ears. Can you speak nicely, please?" perhaps progressing to being a little more firm if this is not working. "I don't like being shouted at. I will listen to you when you can speak nicely." and then do ignore, until she at least makes an effort to tone it down. I use it if DS is overly whining as well, I say "I can't hear what you're saying very well, can you speak nicely?" even if I know what he wants. I have resorted to saying "If you want to make that noise, you're going to have to go and do it in another room because I don't like it." on occasion as well. I am always careful to tell him "It is okay to be upset, DS, if you want to cry, that's fine, but please stop making that wailing/screeching noise." because I don't want him to feel I am telling him to stop being sad/expressing his emotions, I would just like him to do it in a less painful way! DP is prone to telling him "stop crying" and I hate this, it's one of my pet hates with children.

Also - don't fall into the trap of feeling like you have to reward every time she does not shout, so if she is shouting "I WANT SWEETIES" repeatedly and you don't want to give them to her, you still ask her to ask nicely, but then don't feel "Oh no, she's just done something for me and now I have to give her what she wants because she's been good!" you can still give a calm "No, it's nearly time for dinner." and then deal with the fallout appropriately - ignore, cuddle, offer alternatives, give a delayed "yes" e.g. "You can have sweeties tomorrow/you can have a yoghurt after dinner." I think though that in the interests of consistency and showing that we don't like shouting for any reason it's best to try and avoid responding to the "I WANT SWEETS, I WANT THEM NOW" type tactics with a curt "No! You're not having anything!" - asking her to ask you nicely shows her that you're listening and taking her request seriously, even if you say no. (Hope that makes sense...)

Thanks Bertiebotts for your post. It makes a lot of sense. I am not a shouting person at all and I cannot understand why shehas just started shouting. This morning I changed the routine a bit and got her dressed when she woke up and worked very well so I will using this instead and see what happens. Telling her that I am going to the loo and when I am bak we will start getting dress do not work at all

Also this morning she was shouting for something (not remember very well wha it was) and when I told her that my ears hurt when she shouted she started talking nicely. Telling her to speak nicely does not work as she replies back "I AM NOT TALKING NICELY".

You are right with her picking up the stress of being late so I will work on this in the future and see if it can change.

We don't have TV, not enough time to watch it, but sometimes she asks to watch a DVD in the computer. I may try to do something like you and see if I can find a film or else that will finish just in time to go.

Thanks again. Your comments always make a lot of sense