I want to teach DD Spanish, help please

[Velvetcu]

I lived in Madrid a couple of years ago and whilst I was there gained learned a bit of Spanish, enough to hold a (very slow paced) conversation. Since I've been home I've not really spoken any Spanish although I'd like to.

DD is 14 weeks old and I want her to have at least a basic grasp of another language as we may move to Spain again and, besides, it's a great skill to have. I know it's early but I want to get started.

I'm not confident enough in my own correct use of, e.g. past tenses so do not just want to chat away to her in case I'm teaching her the wrong thing. So I have a number of questions;

1. Does anyone know of or where I could find a spanish speaking baby group in Medway, Kent?
2. Can you recommend some baby books
3. I have sesame street in Spanish, are there any other good programmes I should get?

Tinsie, I can't see how my attempt speaking Cantonese to my 10mo different from the OP in Spanish. Except that I'm a native speaker. I have no accent and certainly don't make grammatical mistakes. But I have a limited vocab in lots of areas. I actually google things up to find their names.

DD is also in an environment where there is no need to communicate with anyone in the minority language, as I'm the only speaker around. (I talk to my parents on the phone). We don't watch dvds or tvs. I have no books in chinese. DH can't speak a word of it, except copying me and repeating it in a very very bad accent! Also chinese dialects are much harder to learn than another European language, for an English speaker.

But I don't see it as a futile exercise. It doesn't take any effort for me to talk to my LO in cantonese. Maybe she'll pick up some of it from me. We'll ofc buy some books and dvds when I visit hong kong later this year. It's easy enough to read to her in another language, and watch some peppa pigs together when she's a bit older.

"Spanish grammar is more complex (more redundant pronouns etc for example) than French." I don't know enough Spanish to challenge that but I do know that French grammar is fantastically complex, not so much because of redundancy as because of irregularity. Actually, pronouns are a case in point. So I would say that the advantage of Spanish is its apparent regularity and consistency, and i would think that that was a big advantage, especially for a child learner in only an hour or two a week.

It's different for bilinguals, of course - the grammar just has to be learnt, complex or not (and I am aware that difficulty is a swings and roundabouts phenomenon when comparing ANY two languages) and so comes in fits and starts. But I would always think that Spanish is easier for anyone NOT aiming to learn the language to perfection in the short or medium term. Am I wrong?

"The golden rule when you're not a native speaker yourself (and not even a fluent speaker from the sounds of it) is that you should never speak to the child in the foreign/second language, otherwise they'll end up learning all the mistakes that you make in pronounciation, intonation, grammar etc. Which sort of defies the whole exercise...."

The problem with that "golden rule" is that it is not true. We are a family of non-native bilinguals; my daughter attends French Saturday school with the children of natives and fits in just fine. So either I don't make mistakes or she hasn't picked them up.

Nor is my family in any way unique in this respect; the most famous case is the Australian George Saunders who, though an English-speaking Australian ( and a lecturer in German) brought up all three of his children as native German speakers, in Australia, in the 1970s and 1980s, andwrote two books about it; when they briefly moved to Germany with his job, the two children (at that time) managed perfectly well in German society, school etc with no remedial help.

Of course, anyone is entitled to an opinion on this matter, but opinions are not facts.

I would always think that Spanish is easier for anyone NOT aiming to learn the language to perfection in the short or medium term. Am I wrong?

Yes, I think you are. I could learn any language "not to perfection" and, bar different alphabets or tonal languages like Mandarin etc I don't think it would be easier to learn Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese "not to perfection". Anyone can learn a few bits of vocab and phrases. I've learnt a smattering of Portuguese, Italian, and Russian on my own and did 5 yrs of French at school and now live my life in Spanish. I wouldn't say any of them was fantastically harder than the others. I hated French but that was because the pronunciation I found hard, not the grammar. I think I found it particularly hard as my teacher (non native) had an atrocious accent so I felt I was pronouncing everything wrong (and I was). Portuguese has horrible grammar too, at least as horrible as French and very odd pron, but I managed to learn a smattering.
I just don't buy this idea that French is so much harder than other languages. It has things that certain speakers may find hard, but so do other languages.

Pipoca

Fair point. However, I studied Russian and French both to graduate level. There is some truth in the idea that, for English speakers, Russian starts very hard and then gets easy (high "barriers to entry" because you need to learn a new alphabet, verb conjugations, and 36 combinations of word endings for nouns - but then a very simple and, for English speakers, intuitive tense system) whereas French starts very easy and then gets hard (daily exposure to French, same alphabet, "only" two genders, a lot of recognisable vocab - but then a tense system which is both complex and quite different to English, a subjunctive still in regular use which is actually quite hard to construct, and so many swallowed sounds in normal speech that it sounds nothing like it looks).

But, as I say, I'm no expert in Spanish and can't comment. I think also that HOW the language is learnt and for what purposes is what really makes these barriers big or small.

Actually Mandarin is fantastically easy. I used to be able to speak it at school and university when I have Taiwanese school friends. I learned it from just listening to them and watching some TV. I could hold a conversation, but definitely not perfect. And definitely way more than a few bits of vocab and phrases. Now, I can understand it spoken on TV, but can't hold a conversation anymore. On the other hand, I couldn't understand a word of other chinese dialects like Taiwanese Hokkien.

My point is, pipoca, I think there is a difference in difficulties in learning 'not to perfection' a similar group of languages, depending on the persons own language background. So I do buy the idea that spanish might be easier to learn than french to an english speaker.

Yes, MIFLAW the subjunctive is used an awful lot in Spanish and, as far as I'm aware (crap at French) negative instructions are more complex in Spanish than in French for instance. The complication where I live is the very thick andaluz accent and andaluz words (a dialect I suppose), very different from Spanish spoken in Salamanca or Madrid for instance. So, like you say about French, andaluz Spanish sounds nothing it looks.
I do see what you're all saying and I agree it depends on how and what for the language is learnt but it does wind me up I have to say, this idea that Spanish is so easy peasy compared to other languages, when i really don't think it is. There are far more nuances to language learning.

Pipoca

I am not suggesting AT ALL that Spanish is easy to learn, the proof being that I have learnt French but not Spanish.

but, trying to view language learning (1) from a child's point of view and (2) as a process rather than an end goal, my perception comparing - say - French, Russian and Spanish would be this:

Russian - ALL of the pain felt right at the very beginning. No more real pain till graduate level.

French - low pain at the beginning, but a lot more than people pretend, especially if your mouth muscles are still developing. Pain then increases steadily before shooting up at A level and beyond.

Spanish - very low pain at the beginning, due to consistent phonology, comparatively regular verb conjunctions, quite "distinct" phonology making confusions less likely (for example, I can't think of anything like the u/ou or an/on distinctions in French, which could have you confusing your arse and your neck or saying "git" when you mean to say "when"!), building at around GCSE level (redundant pronouns) and presumably rocketing after that, because I don't believe any natural language is genuinely easier than another if your goal is mastery.

In other words, mastery is equally hard in all three; but if, as a child with very little experience of language learning, or even conceptual understanding of what language is, your parents want you to cover the beginning stages, then my perception has always been that you would have more immediate and enjoyable success with Spanish. Yet, for all sorts of cultural and historical reasons, the default language proposed to those learners is French. And i think that that's a poor choice FOR THOSE LEARNERS.

Well, I've been so interested by this discussion that I've been chatting to a couple of linguist friends (teahcers/translators) who speak French, Spanish and Portuguese and they agree with MIFLAW that French is harder cos of irregularities/pron and Spanish has an easier entry level, getting harder with the subjunctive. So, I stand corrected, but I have enjoyed reading all this immensely and had a fascinating conversation all about languages with my friends. I love MN, food for the brain it is!

I think there's one thing missing here and that is that learning a language should be fun - I've been teaching my son Spanish from an
early age as it's my hubbies first language - we have been learning together, really enjoyed it and his pronunciation is far, far better than mine as his dad reads his bedtime stories in Spanish every night. We haven't been able to go as much of a bilingual route as my husband had to live away for a year - so the input just wasn't there. I stepped in naturally as I am also a teacher. I don't think you can do harm teaching the basics as language is constantly evolving and children respond very well if there speech is "tweaked."'I firmly believe with effort and focus there is no reason why anyone can't teach there child a second language - accents and grammar can be ironed out with practice. It's about fun and learning.

I would really encourage the OP to speak Spanish to your DD if you want to, errors and all. I speak non-native French to my son, I know I make errors but I also know I can communicate, which many people can't, despite spending years learning a language. I started late (he was 2) but he understands native speakers with no problem and can make himself understood in an all French environment. He watches TV in French, has bedtime stories in French, and we sing nursery rhymes in French.

I couldn't really disagree more with people who say that because you won't teach your child something 'properly' you shouldn't do it at all - there are many many examples of adults and children who have been taught languages 'properly' at school but cannot string a single sentence together. My son (aged 3.8) already speaks French better than most GCSE level students I have heard, and whilst he does make errors, he makes them in English too and nobody finds that a problem. I would rather he makes errors in 'le' or 'la' but can communicate than not be able to talk at all.

This thing about speaking Spanish to your child in an English speaking environment is that it is additive, not subtractive, in which case the 'golden rule' of 'speak your own language to your child' does not apply at all. What that means is that your baby will definitely learn English, whether or not you speak English to them, there is enough exposure there already. If you speak Spanish to them, they may or may not learn some Spanish in addition, but one thing is sure, it will not prevent them acquiring perfect English. If you were Spanish but decided to speak English to them because everyone else was, that would be subtractive.

The other fantastic thing about speaking a non-native language to your child is that you have a wonderful opportunity to improve in that language and to make it part of your everyday life. When I started my French was not that great, but the language you speak to children is simple and you can study to keep ahead of them. I have French lessons, listen to French podcasts, watch TV in French and read in French. Learning French together has been one of the most rewarding things I have done with my children. I would really encourage you to go for it - the more you do it, the more natural it feels. It is not a cheap option, you will need to buy DVDS, CDs, books etc in Spanish to keep the exposure up.

Before I stop, one book I would recommend to a non-native parent is
'Play and Learn Spanish' by Ana Lomba - it has lists of useful phrases for various situations so provides a crib sheet. Also, google 'non-native bilingualism' to find lots of blogs of people doing this, and lots of encouragement!