Tell me, are all 6 year old boys unpleasant?

[Shoganai]

My ds1 is 6. He comes out with stuff like, "I hate you, you shit," "You are uglier than a pig," "Your mouth sucks," "I wish you were dead and never been born." I'm pretty amazed at what stuff he can come with. He throws toys, books and tears them up too, in his anger.

This is usually when I've said he cannot get down from the table because not all of us have finished eating or that he cannot go on the computer for the umpteenth time in one day. Or that it's bedtime or bathtime. Or that it's time to get dressed for school. Or that there is no chocolate mousse for dessert today. Sigh.

In fact, he trots this stuff out pretty regularly every day. Shouting, screaming, yelling. It's pretty unpleasant and wearing.

Unless he gets his own way of course in which case he's sweetness and light. Until something else cheeses him off in the next ten minutes. Which is usually the case.

Right, I know I have to let so much of that roll off my back and I ignore it but sometimes he's so full of vitriol and bile, it astounds me. And it hurts my feelings. I just put him in his room when it gets really bad because I just don't want to hear anymore. He will keep on and on

But it is like living with the most unpleasant, surly, bad tempered old man. I just don't want to live like this anymore. I mean, he will lie down on a wet, cold pavement rather than cross the road with me and the other dcs like I asked him to.

The G.P. says he does it just because he can. Which isn't very insightful or helpful.

He gets punished (put in room, toys taken away, bedtime story gone - depending on what time of day his misdemeanour is) and rewarded - nice points adding up to a nice prize for good behaviour. At six, should he be understanding that the way he behave has consequences?

I just worry he is not a nice person. There are plenty of those in the world and perhaps some are just born that way.

Obviously, I must have done something to contribute to this state of affairs but my other dcs are not at all like this. I mean they are only 5 and 3 so I guess they have time to develop their potty mouths! But ds1 has been this way since he was 3.

And if I could think what it is I have done to make him this way, I would dearly love to know what is rotten in my parenting that has made this miserable creature.

I've asked him. He just says I make him angry by asking him to do things and by not letting him do what he wants.

He's great at school. Doing well. At home, he is very unpleasant. 97% of the time. What's he going to be like as a teenager if this is what he is like at 6?

Posting in haste. My 6 yr old ds is very similar. I was accused on here a few weeks ago of lazy parenting. For the 1st time ever I wanted to leave mumsnet - it is not lazy parenting so DONT blame yourself. Mine is also rude (I hate you etc), aggressive, violent, angry. I am newly separated and I think my DS must have picked up some of my ex's attitude and disrespect.

DS's school are working with him but until last year they kept saying no problem. But there is. His new Yr 2 teacher is great - firm but creative. DS is very frustrated as although bright he is struggling with reading, writing, maths. (He ia a late summer born boy). Is your son doing OK at school?

You dont mention any support from anyone - partner, family, friends etc. if at all possible please get some support - I love my DS very much but so welcome time away from him.

I too worry enormously about whether DS will be an unpleasant adult - I so hope not.

Please pm and I will reply - this week I have divorce papers to review, tax return to start and relaunching my business for new year so I may not reply immediately!

My DS also aged 6 is very surly, uncooperative and hostile. Has been since he was 2. I worry for his future partners and children.

It's exhausting and very upsetting. I too have been dismissed by the GP.

Lazy parenting? Uh, ok then. That must be it. Veryconfused, you just cannot be bothered to try and make things better for your ds.

But dh and I are worn out by it. And our other dcs are too. We have tried everything bar the £200 per hour psychiatrist.

The G.P. says he does it just because he can.

Well he can. He can't at school, he knows the boundaries and he doesn't do it.
If he said any of those things to his teacher there would be hell to pay and he knows it. You are taking it.
My DS tried saying 'you cow'-he did it once! No one has ever said that to me and no one is ever going to and I never use language like that. You have never heard anyone back track so fast, it was quite funny. He didn't try it again.
If you let him use language like that I can guarantee that the younger ones will copy in time.

Most DCs make out they have a dreadful life at some point because 'everyone else's parents lets them............'

First of all forget all the 'I hate you' it is meaningless. Don't take it personally.
Second. Sit him down. Tell him that you are not having it and that you don't call people that you love names like shit. If he does it again you will go on strike, ignore him completely.
Draw up a list of rules together -keep it simple. Draw up a list of things he would like to do-they don't have to cost-bake a cake, play football in the garden. Explain that if he sticks to list one you will find time for list 2.

Don't give him attention for bad behaviour. Ignore as much as possible and concentrate on the positive. If he calls you a name that you don't like ignore him completely, sit down and read a book or play with the other DCs or peel potatoes-do not get drawn in to responding. Afterwards tell him that you explained you were not having it and you will totally ignore. He will get the message eventually.

As the GP said, he is behaving that way because he can, he can't at school so he doesn't.

I would use the word "trying" rather than "unpleasant", but yes, the 6yo child in my life is always the most difficult (so far, next year I'll have a teenager so may revise that view).

And when that all fails, what then? DS1 us like this, bar the language. He has always had firm boundaries and rules and consequences. When he is good we praise him and do a bead jar for
Him. It doesn't work! He used to Bethesda sweetest, nicest little boy but has become an unholy terror since starting school. He had always been hyper and what would be described as a fidget, the gp comments on it every time we go but can't offer any help. I am going to make an appointment win school this week, because he's got worse since starting year 1. It's exhausting being his mummy and I love him, but don't know how to help him anymore. He is frighteningly clever, I don't have enough answers for him and this makes him cross too. He yells no matter what we do. It's hard isn't it?

Just a thought-do you do much with him as an individual without the other DCs? Do you give him a different bedtime from the 5 yr old? I have 2 who are close in age and it was much better once I started giving the older one a later bedtime even though it took longer. Does he have much responsibility?

It doesn't follow that they will be a dreadful teenager, DS1 was my hardest when young and he was much the easiest of the 3 as a teenager.

If he is 6 yrs I would also send him to Beavers or join a football club-anything to use up energy. If he is frighteningly clever get him playing chess.

DS1 made me cry a few times when he was 4yo, by the time he was 6yo I was inured & just thought him very odious (still a few times nearly brought me to tears). He's a lovely 12yo boy now, honest. :) It won't last, I know, teen years beckon, that's why I talk up what fun & great company he is.

This parenting shit is hard.

Referral to CaMHS?

I was in the process last year via the school nurse who was incredibly helpful

If you are going to cry go into another room out of sight-giving a DC that sort of power is frightening for them. Never take it personally-they love you to bits-they just sometimes have a funny way of showing it!

Poor you, it all sounds exhausting, especially as you have younger dcs, too. I noticed one thing in your op which may help.

'Unless he gets his own way of course in which case he's sweetness and light'

People continue with behaviours which get them what they want, especially when the reward is random and intermittent. (a rat will press a lever more if they don't get a treat every time, it's why gambling is addictive).

So if he gets his own way after bad behaviour even rarely, this is hugely reinforcing. It will be hard, but if you completely blank all bad behaviour, not even giving negative attention he will at first escalate the behaviours, then they should diminish over time.

At six he will want more independence. Have you tried giving him a big boy list of things to do in the morning so you don't have to tell him what to do so much? Put 'computer' at the end so he has a reward. If he can tell the time he could get ready to leave at a certain time, or he could set a timer so he knows when it's time.

Similarly, when it comes to computer time, have days or parts of days where he can or can't play mapped out on a chart, and get him to set a timer to stop after 30 mins or so.

Have you read the 'how to talk so children will listen' series. It really helped us. Have a look on amazon at the reviews. it's the only parenting book I ever recommend.

Yes I was going to recommend 'How to Talk' as well. It sounds sappy but with the 'I hate you' comment, the response is, 'I understand how you feel but when you say that it makes me feeld sad because I love you very much' or some such - acknowledging how they feel and acknowledging their right to express it but making them understand that it has consequences.

Hard to be consistant with it though.

I honestly think some kids just don't like certain stages of their life. I hated the years between 7-11 and I'm sure my mum wasn't too happy with me but I was a wonderful teenager as I loved the fact that I had some control over my life and that school was more challenging. Give it time.

In the meantime, please please please try to maintain a positive attitude towards your DS. If you honestly think he's "unpleasant" that will come across in your interaction with him, no matter how much you try to hide it. There is nothing more horrible for a child than to feel that their parents don't like them. Try to separate his behaviour from who he actually is and try to see him as someone who is struggling to get through a difficult stage in his life rather than someone who is horrible or badly behaved.

He does gymnastics and swimming and is learning chess and monopoly now. He could play things like draughts when he was 3! That took him literally five minutes to pick up. I am bit at all PFB but am worried that I'm not meeting his needs and in his frustration he is being deeply unpleasant and violent.

We do different bedtimes to the baby and we do things together but nothing seems to help!

I hope school will help!

In 'how to talk' in reply to 'i hate you' they might also say 'youre angry with me because i want you to/want you to stop....? ' if they agree, then you would validate their feelings 'you wish you could play on the computer all day and never ever go to school? I wish we could all go to the beach and eat icecream..." it sounds crazy but the idea is that the validation calms them and makes them feel understood. Also they say not to try to minimise the emotion, so if a child is angry about a broken toy or minor thing you don't say 'it's just a toy, calm down' you can say 'wow, you are really upset about this aren't you? Your face looks like thunder and there's smoke coming out of your ears, I can see the flames...etc I bet you wish you could turn back time/wave a magic wand/ to fix it..and so on.

I also wonder if you could get him to write down how he feels, with potty language and pictures if necessary in a big boy diary.

He sounds bright and I think they are more frustrated when they are bright and realising they are essentially controlled by adults.

Try spotting his good qualities or anything positive he has done, and make sure he hears about it. Sometimes 'second hand' praise works well, so tell your dp/dh goods things about ds when you know he can overhear, or if youve not got a partner, pretend you're on the phone and tell a 'friend' that ds has been playing monopoly or chess really nicely, and how you love it, or that he's managing to organise himself in the morning, only if its true.

I've felt at a loss recently with my Dd1 with the same behaviour. Great advice here. I normally do not respond to this behaviour and this approach isn't working. I have the how to talk book and I should have a good read of it and put it in practise.

When they say 'I hate you' I just passed it off lightly with 'it is just as well that I have enough love for 2 then'.
If they are bright enough to know they are controlled by adults they are bright enough to work out how to get the control themselves-or at least how to 'push all your buttons'.

That's exactly my son, he knows exactly which buttons!

We had a little break through earlier, calmed him down and he was a joy! We do praise him when he's a good boy already so maybe more ignoring or quick help along the way to calm will be the way forward.

Shoganai, look at your body language when this is happening. Do you look away, not respond? That is acquiescence, whatever happens afterwards. As the GP says, he does it because he can.

Have you gone down right into his face and told him very forcefully that this language is NOT acceptable, and DO NOT talk to Mummy like that (hold eye contact in a 'how DARE you you are close to death' gaze)?

Watch Supernanny. That's how you do it. Remember, you are the adult. He is a helpless little boy.