UPers and those with UP tendencies...

[Sparklyboots]

... how important do you think it is that your DP is on board with the UP-type strategies?

So, DS is only 12mo and I can't say that I'm brilliant with the whole UP thing - I just don't have to do very much parenting which is distinctly different from un-UP parenting. But... DP and I have discussed stuff like 'good boy' and other language which inadvertently conveys conditional approval, and though he nods along, he nevertheless often uses this kind of language. I think it's partially reflex (practically having to staple my mouth shut to stop the endless 'good boy/ clever boy' drivel) but I'm wondering whether to discuss it with DP or not. I'm dithering principally because DP is not very confident about his parenting and hugely sensitive to perceived criticism.

I've already wondered about the other significant adults - my parents, MIL - in DS's life and am pretty much of the opinion that their relationship with DS is their business as long as appropriate boundaries are respected. So for example they can call him a good boy and use other non-UP language, but I've reprimanded my dad for jokingly calling DS a wuss (ostensibly on the grounds that I don't ever want DS to think name-calling is acceptable. Privately the gendering that was happening in that moment was equally significant to me personally).

My overall rationale is that as long as DS has a secure, unconditional relationship at the centre of his world, the challenges that other relationships present him should not threaten his foundational sense of self - I'm pretty sure that Alfie Kohn thinks that as long as the home is a place of unconditional love, the conditionality of outside relationships shouldn't be a problem. Can I extend this, do you think, to DP & I? So, so long as DS experiences my love as unconditional, if DP is more (inadvertently) conditional in style, will it matter? Part of me thinks it won't, but I am concerned about our roles as proto-woman/man in DS's world. Any thoughts gratefully appreciated, but please note I'm not looking for a discussion of UP as a basic approach - I'm looking for a discussion about applying its principles in this context.

What's UP?

You want my thoughts? Okay.

Chill. No matter what you or anyone else do or say will make no difference in the long run so long as your child knows he's loved and can count on you.

Feed him, clothe him, love him. Relax about everything else.

Those are my thoughts.

Your dilemma is what comes of reading too many books and not having the confidence to make your own philosophy.
There is no harm in reading it but once having read it you have to realise there is no 'right' answer and what is 'right' for one DC or parent can be entirely wrong for another-even within the same family. One size never fits all. You can be sure your DCs hasn't read the same books. Respond to the DC you have and don't spend your time wondering what Alfie Kohn would do-(we don't even know how his DCs turned out!)

DCs just need unconditional love and security.
By all means parent in a UP way, and you need to agree with DP.
However you need to accept that you can't control your DCs environment and you have no control over the people he comes into control with. I have no intention of ever being told how I should talk to other people's DCs and if I want to say 'good boy' I certainly will, I can even imagine an occasion where I might say 'don't be a wuss' if I was laughing with the DC.

I think that you are over thinking the whole thing-forget the books for a while, do what comes naturally and then reread later. (half the people who read Alfie Kohn seem to misunderstand a lot of it anyway).

Harriet Unconditional Parenting

OP, I don't think it matters if its mainly that your dp says "good boy" and you don't want to say that king of thing. I think it matters more to have an attitude of respect and acceptance of your child, rather than using specific phrases. Tricky thing is how to do that in practice, much easier just to edit your language! And I imagine it only gets harder as they get older (my ds only slightly older than yours).

Agree wuss is horrible thing to say to anyone, especially a baby.

Honestly.

Stop reading the books.

Chill out.

Love your child.

Play with him.

Comfort him when he cries.

Feed him when he's hungry.

Keep him warm, fed and happy.

And chill out.

You'll turn yourself demented trying to police every word that comes out of your mouth/anyone else utters to your child.

Just my opinion.

I see on mn a lot of people saying forget the books, trust your instincts, do what comes naturally... But I had a baby and nothing came naturally - I didn't have a bloody clue what I was doing and it didn't get better until I started reading some books and started thinking what I really want for my dc. I don't think this is unique - perhaps more likely if your own parents were not (very) supportive or loving and you are trying to be a different type of parent.

I'm not saying books like UP contain all the answers or are for everyone but they helped me think about what kind of childhood I want ds to have - warm, interested in him and helping him to find his place in life. And made me realise perhaps where the gaps were in my own experiences.

Not speaking for the OP obviously, just my thoughts.

I think as someone without many rolemodels for parenting, I found books very stressful. There were always parts that didn't work for me (or more importantly us) and it stressed me out wondering how important it was to start establishing bedtime as a random eg...

I haven't read the UP book OP, but from what you've said if you are being the main UP I don't think it matters that your DP has a different approach in this instance.

There is nothing wrong in reading the books and discovering what sort of parent you want to be but -once read- close it and don't forever worry about whether you are getting it 'right'.
Certainly forget about controlling granny, great uncle Fred, you next door neighbour etc etc etc-it can't be done!

Anyone's parenting book will have things that work for you and things that don't work for you-we are all individuals. If it worked for everyone, in the same way, we would be robots!

What totallyscunnered said.

totallyscunnered has everything a DC needs. (I would add that a happy, relaxed mother is better than one who keeps wondering if Alfie Kohn would approve!)

Although I disagree with Alfie Kohn on some important details (why shouldn't children have cake then lunch???? You should have seen mine and some friends in a cafe the other day - they ALL ate cake and icecream and then sat down to their savoury main course - and they all ate it all - and I did think of AK at that point, and his "well, obviously you can be flexible but there are certain bottom line rules, like not having cake before lunch". Heh) we live in a somewhat similar style. (aka the "whatever works" school of family life)

And avoiding "good girl/boy" is all very well except that, as people upthread have said, you cannot (and should not) try to control the language that grandma uses with her grandchildren. Also, if you take a firm line on this, the chances are very good that your child will become a Dora the Explorer fan, and they will spend their entire life congratulating you on the "good job" you did fetching them an apple. It's almost impossible not to pick that language up from your children (or maybe that's just me being a bit echolalic), and start "good job"bing them back, TBH. Its not the language you use, it's the way you are interacting with your children that's important.

i dont like labelling the way i parent. but its not within 'convential' methods.

i am not UP or AP, i pick and choose. i havent read AK, etc, but am about to start reading 'the idle parent'

waht i have learnt over the years that as your children are mainly with you in the early years, you have a bigger influence on their life, tahn grandma, doris down the road, the man in the sweet shop. so if somneone else says 'good boy/girl etc' its not going to undermine your parenting.

dh parents differently to me. but we try and agree on most things, discuss everything. but his use of language is different. he uses some phrases that make me wince, but as the children know its him and how he talks, and not coming from me, then its fine. for eg, dd1 and him tease each other a lot (dd1 is 11 btw so not a little kid), but if i said something like dh said, then dd1 wouldnt know what had happened.

i dont mind saying things in a jokey way ' ah you big wuss, its a teeny spider' as i remove one from the bathroom, but will pull people up on gender stereotyping.

As long as the family home is a loving enviroment and children know what to expect from their parents, the goalposts arent constantly moved, then they will be fine.

i think the language aspect is more important when the kids get older. i'm focusing on school age and the language i use then to motivate them and encourage them. obviously we can't suddenly start talking to our kids differently so i'm trying to do it now but not stressing too much about it.

It is what you do yourself that matters and not what you say.
Small details don't matter. I don't do cake before dinner, but that is because I wouldn't dream of doing it myself. On a scale of 1-10 it isn't very important.
Some DCs who are not praised are going to spend their life trying to get praise from a parent and be annoyed, as an adult, that they never got it.
One thing that you can't guarantee is that your DC will take after you, or think the same ,so you may as well be true to yourself.

You say the good boy 'drivel', and that bothers me.

My DS is 17 months. I frequently tell him he is a good boy. Why? Because when I say it, it is because I am thinking he is being a bloody good boy! Even if it is for something seemingly very inconsequential, if I think 'good boy', I will say 'good boy!'. It feels right.

When it comes to loving, praising, affection etc, if it feels right as a parent, then I say - do it and sod the books.

Sorry, I missed your request for not a general discussion on the merits of UP or otherwise.

I will just say one thing though. You do seem to be approaching parenting in a very serious, dare I say it, professional manner. I support the other posters... may be consider relaxing a little.

You would be horrified at the names I call my boy... Poo Poo for brains, thicky, big bum, little person, moo-moo face, ugly butt, silly bum. The list goes on. Derogatory and downright rude, and goodness know the long term effect! But makes DS giggle!

Some DCs who are not praised are going to spend their life trying to get praise from a parent and be annoyed, as an adult, that they never got it.

As I remember the idea is that generic "good boy" praise doesn't represent much of an engagement in what the child is actually doing and feeling, whereas for example commenting specifically on a detail of their picture that you liked demonstrates that you are really paying attention to them.

Also many people end up feeling that praise is like smoking, once you get some what you really want is more and more, sometimes to the detriment of enjoying the activity or achievement itself.

bbface I don't imagine OP is bothered what you call your child, just what people call hers.

There is way to much over thinking going on! I don't see why a DC is an abnormal case and has to be treated differently. You must have a normal way that you interact with DH,relations, friends, work colleagues etc without thinking about how you word it-just do similar. You will tie yourself in knots if you are trying to follow someone else and are constantly wondering if it is right!

OKAY! So, thanks for the replies, everyone. It seems that I have somewhat miscommunicated my situation, as in the first place I do not feel uptight wondering about this - it's a question I'm considering at the moment. I don't feel unconfident about my parenting choices nor am I concerned about whether Alfie Kohn approves of my style - I just introduced his perspective on this as part of the discussion.

As I've said, I pretty much think other peoples' relationships with DS are their business - I do not try and stop Grandma etc. calling DS a 'good boy' but have drawn the line at what I see as unacceptable name-calling, esp. as in that case it was related to gender stereotyping.

My question was really about how much of a 'united front' DP and I should be working towards in this particular area of language use. I think this is probably where some of us will have to disagree - I do think it's important how I frame my love and approval for DS in terms of the language I use and I do think it is important to praise actions as actions rather than globalise achievements etc. into my appreciation of DS as a whole. I wasn't really here to discuss these largely UP principles; I was here to discuss the extent to which they can have effect if only one parent is 'practicing'. Of course, I realise that unconditional acceptance does not flow merely by my not saying 'good boy' on autopilot.

This is all informed by a good amount of reading, I will concede, but added to that is my own experience of families as well as my past therapeutic relationship. From my experience of being in a family, and then in a therapeutic relationship, I have taken the understanding that what 'feels natural' often is about what is normal and familiar for you, which isn't to say that it is necessarily healthy or has been constructed without agenda. I also know that good intentions from loving families nevertheless can have negative consequences for individuals within those structures. I am familiar enough with Phillip Larkin to know that I am going to give DS a whole set of hangups I never knew I had, but I do think it's worth trying to move away from patterns that were significant in the ones that I do know I have.

I should also say that I'm seriously relaxed about my approach to parenting being based on a mix of inputs - it's how I've approached everything that I feel good about. I always read the book, I always geek out on research on whatever I am involved in, I always refer to people whose style I like when reflecting on my own approach. I enjoy this way of reflecting about my actions and find slightly tiresome the immediate assumption that it's out of my presumption that I'm inadequate that I do so.

Thanks again for all your responses.

Hi Sparkly, I read your thread last night but didn't get time to reply.

I read UP and found it really interesting and inspirational but a bit short on practical tips. I think in some ways this is good because you figure out your own way of doing things but some examples may have helped...

Anyway, re the 'good boy' thing, I think it's so tricky because in our culture this is so common and it can be hard to get out of the habit. I tried to become more conscious of it and started saying 'thank you' when DD1 did something I asked instead of saying 'good girl'.

I don't think I've mentioned much about UP to DH, we just kind of muddle along and learn as we go He has started picking up on the 'thank you' thing so you might find your DH does the same. We learn from each other as well as me reading tons of books (I run a parents group so I've always got a stack of books to read) and learning from friends too.

Do you know anyone IRL who has the same approach to parenting as you? There was an UP support thread on MN somewhere but I haven't seen it for ages.

The question of harmonising language: it kind of depends how it's done. It's really likely that you're usually going to be praising actions as actions, rather than globalising achievements (what a beautiful turn of phrase) - and the more in the moment and present someone is with their child, the more naturally that flows.

Even in a marriage/relationship where it often feels like TwoMindsWithButASingleThought there are going to be aspects of bringing children up where you aren't in harmony - usually in times of severe stress IME. I can think of aspects of child rearing in which I fall short of my OH's ideals, and others in which he falls short of mine. And it's because, for whatever reason, and however much we may rationally agree with the other's viewpoint, we find we cannot live that particular philosophy, given the limitations of our own psychological makeup. Our children accept that their father doesn't do ; they accept that I don't do . But we are each observing the good stuff that the other one is modelling, and emulating it as far as we are able. And we get better at it all as the years go by.

And yes, like you, there is plenty of reading and thinking and geeking out in the background (you might like to explore the Taking Children Seriously site, which makes Alfie Kohn look like conventional parenting with an attempted nicey nicey twist...; or do some reading around the Unschooling movement; Jan Hunt's natural child project is interesting too; Jan Fortune Wood is very interesting and thought provoking)

Oh, thanks, ommward and EauRouge - since you've put it like this, of course I'm happy for DS to experience different parenting style - it's an expression of the way in which we can all be acceptable but differ widely, after all. That's really helped me clarify it. Thanks also Albrecht for saying concisely what I neglected somehow to cover in my initial essay, ha ha.

Now I think about it, in fact, I see the 'united front' thing is really part of authority creation, where you don't want to set up 'rules' which then are not respected by everyone in charge. As this is nothing to do with that, and we've no need as yet for rules other than 'no playing with knives' type things, the 'united front' thing is not really in question here and the mistake I've made was thinking it was.

I am lucky enough to have regular contact with other mothers who are thinking along the same lines as me, I feel really fortunate about that. But it is nice to tap into the MN cloud, especially as we were away over Christmas and the parenting groups haven't really warmed up again for the new year yet.

I'm intrigued by the 'Taking Children Seriously' site, though wryly note the commonly expressed view here that I'm already taking the whole thing too seriously... Already started looking at unschooling - thanks for the names, I will def look them up.

I think that most parenting comes in a somewhat central position.I wouldn't not praise but it doesn't mean that I praise for anything. I praise where praise is due, and I hope that people would do the same to me as an adult.
Unschooling always sets my back up-you can't 'unschool' a DC who has never been to school! (fair enough if they have been in the past)

My tuppence is that you & your DH will have different approaches to many aspects of parenting (whether it be UP ideas or anything else). You both need to have some flexibility & tolerance for the other to have different "style". Willingness to experiment & try new or different things, to not stick to dogmas or ideals, is a sign of good parenting.

The only parenting differences I would openly dispute with a partner (beyond obvious, like physical violence) is inconsistency, so shouting one day about something DC the did & next day ignoring or shrugging off the same behaviour. And making a big fuss about minor issues, or expecting DC to know how to do things you never taught them to do. (concise list of DH's parenting faults).