Can the GF CLBB really work?? - with my 4 + mth baby

[Vicky2001]

Hi everyone,
I have just bought the 'CLBB' and cannot put it down. It sounds so good. My baby is 4+mth and was sleeping through the night up until a month ago. He wakes up wide awake and then screams after about 10-15mins. He is on 4 bottles a day 8,12,4,8 bed for 8.30pm. He is having a breakfast and lunch. I thought he may be hungry so I gave him a 1/4 rusk as well as his last bottle but that didn't work. Tried a sleep suit in case he was cold but that didn't work. I have looked at the routine in the CLBB and don't know whether to give it a go. The only thing is I have never woke him at 10pm for a feed and don't know what to do. This would mean him having 5 bottles. Can anybody help....As you can probably guess I am a 1st time mum.

I think from previous discussions we've had on this subject that it really depends on you and your baby, Vicky2001. Some babies seem to fall into their own routine sooner or later and others just don't and may need to be actively put into one. Also, some parents are able to be very organised and enjoy a routine while others find it difficult to work by the clock and enjoy the flexibility of not having to work with a schedule all the time.
I must admit I personally have some reservations about putting a newborn straight into a routine but lots of contributors to these boards have found that it really worked for them right from the start. Others have said that GF worked for them when they were at their wits end a bit further down the line. Since your son is 4 months now and you know a lot more about him you'll be able to think whether this kind of routine would suit you both.
It might be worth reading previous posts on this-off the top of my head I remember that Bloss and Pupuce are GF enthusiasts who write balanced and persuasive accounts of using GF routines so you could look out for their contributions. (Please ignore silly people trying to be controversial- I have a tendancy to do this which I'm trying to conquer- and also be aware that GFlovers and GFhaters are out there in equal measure ready to wind each other up!)

I am not sure that you need to wake him at 10PM. I would try the following things first :

1. Keep the sleepsuit
2. Have you tried settling him with water when ever he wakes up ? In the dark, no eye contact, no nappy changing (unless really necessary), etc

If you start feeding him in the middle of the night, he won't feed well at 8 AM and this is when you start getting into trouble. I you have read GF's book you will know that one of her key points is to feed enough during the day not to be hungry during the night. So he needs to be very hungry in the morning, that won't happen if you feed him too much during the night.

You do not say how he sleeps during the day... can you give a bit more details ?

You can see some of the debates Okapi is referring to as well as some of the other postings here :

Gina Ford - New routine with a 4mth old baby? :
www.mumsnet.com/discus/messages/67/1284.html?1004181809

Calling All Gina Ford Mum's!
www.mumsnet.com/discus/messages/67/1159.html?1001535846

Gina Ford routines with baby number2
www.mumsnet.com/discus/messages/67/1167.html?1003325147

And the Gina Ford Questions and Answers session for Mumsnet...
www.mumsnet.com/onlinechats/livechat03.html

Sorry I can't do the fancy hyperlinks others are doing. You will need to cut and paste I am afraid.

Vicky - is he gaining weight? If he is gaining all his weight properly then he's probably not hungry. My only advice re GF is to always choose the routine thats slightly younger than your child to start with, so try the 3-4 month routine first. I tried it with my daughter at 6 weeks, didnt question it at all, just followed it blindly and it was absolutely brilliant, taught me a lot and seemed to make dd very contented and happy too. I would bother to buy 'From Contented Baby to Confident Child', as although I didn't find it particularly useful for my toddler, she goes into lots more useful detail for the baby routines.

Thanks guys for the advice. Pupuce, his daytime naps are as follows. Nap at 10/12:15 (which I know is too long) then maybe another 1 hour in the afternoon. He was having 2 hours in the morning and afternoon which I cut back to see if that would help. The other thing I didn't mention was that he has a dummy (I know 'big mistake') I think this may be the problem, but how to I wean him off it. I only gave it to him when I was breastfeeding as he was comfort sucking all the time and my midwife suggested it. Hope this info helps...

Why don't you try removing his dummy when he starts falling asleep (but still conscious!).. that will be easier if you do it during the daytime nap.
Do you think he wakes up because he lost his dummy ?

If you say yes, then fix the dummy problem (read GF pages 47-48) first...
Otherwise, try to follow her routine for a 3-4 months old. As I have said on other posts if you come late to her routines, babies (amazingly) adapt very quickly. So if you do put him down for a nap at 10AM, then at 1045 go to his room, open the curtains, remove his blanket... this usually wakes them (on rare occasions with mine it didn't so I'd let them sleep). If you fail on the first day, try again the next...
Put him down again at 12h45 and then he should go for a 2 hour nap. He should have the longer nap in the afternoon rather than morning (though I know one child who does it the other way around and it works).
The darker the room, the easier !
Give it a try and please keep me informed I'd be happy to suggest more ideas.

Message withdrawn

BLOSS - One more thing...

(Only joking, I hope I didn't get your hackles up )

Okapi, I hope you're reffering to ME when you say 'silly people' - I take great pride in my sillyness!

Vicky, I hope you have a happy baby whatever you do, and yes there are a lot of people out there who's baby's find their own routine without needing GF. That's ALL I'm saying!

Message withdrawn

Actually I was referring to myself, Lizzer! Am astonished by how out of hand things get when I misguidedly try to be funny. I don't think you've got anything to worry about because your posts always come across (to me anyway) as funny AND sweet and sometimes silly in a good way. Whereas mine occasionally upset people in a way I really didn't intend- I'm actually trying to strongly disagree / have a joke etc and don't think about the consequences. I think it's sometimes pathetically easy to fall into the trap of thinking that everyone thinks like I do and finds the same things amusing, useful, offensive etc instead of remembering that some people definitely don't and respecting that when making strong arguments. Jeez-oh, I'm 28 and still haven't realised that people have different thoughts, opinions, beliefs from me! What a bongle brain, eh? Anyway, am trying v hard to be good at the moment- sarky side is being firmly repressed!- (and have also banned dp from seeing mumsnet ever ever ever again)
Keep the silly flag flying, Lizzer, and I will look and learn!

Hi it's me again. The 'problem' is his dummy. Yes he does wake up and when I have gone into his room he is looking for it and expects you to put it in. I know I have to get this sorted now. Today I am not giving him his dummy! I put him down at 10am without the dummy and he screamed for 45mins. I went to him at 10.45am and got him up and went for a walk. As soon as I got him in the pram he was nodding off, so I tried to keep him awake by singing to him (people must think I'm mad singing & clapping in the street). 12.45pm I put him down again and he screamed for 30mins. Now as I am typing this message he is asleep. I did find it very difficult to leave him crying but I kept checking on him every 10-15mins. (think I need a stiff drink!).

He is gaining weight and takes his feeds really well. Apart from this dummy thing he is a contented baby. I think today is the most he has ever cried. I will keep you posted and let you know how he gets on with the new routine. Thanks again it's nice to know you can have some experienced friends out there even if you are on the net...One more thing I hope your babies are all doing well.

Vicky good luck with the dummy removal, hope you can get away with it...

Okapi, it's better to have to have been funny and lost than never to be funny at all

Bloss, are you wanting me to start cos you know I'm itching to. Ok, let's do it (Vicky, if you have read any other threads you may know me and Bloss have a few friendly disagreements, she moved to the other side of the world to get away from me, can you believe that?! Of course it was only because she knows I'm right!!!! )
My question is (this has been bugging me for ages)...How do you get to toddler groups/ swimming sessions etc if they happen to co-incide with Gina's napping times? I would be worried that children might miss out on experiences such as these because Mum has to get them to sleep and stay there. For example I take dd once a week to 'baby dance' where we have a structured play session to music and she loves it. I like the fact that it's a great inspiring and educational place to take her, but it is only on once a week at a certain time. If this fell on a nap time, would you have to miss it because Gina says so?

Lizzer... don't get ME going... I'll take over until Bloss wakes up !
Gina's routine should ideally be followed "quite strictly" until the baby is 4 months old (that's what she says) after that the child has "registered" the routine and will always fall back on it. This means that you can go to any club or activity almost every day at any time. DS went to nursery at 4 1/2 months old and the routine was clearly not the same, but at WE he would very happily fall right back into it.
DD who is 11 weeks old is also on the routine but not as strictly as DS was, she goes out with me when ever I want to and she is absolutely fine.
GF's principle aim to give the mother and baby (who choose to) a good start in terms of feeding and sleeping patterns. Once that's establish you can define your own routine. I am currently modifying it so that DS goes to bed later and gets up later. Fingers crossed it is working.

Message withdrawn

Oh, well why didn't you say so sooner! I think I've got the wrong end of the stick as far as GF goes. I know I should really see the book, but I prefer to bug you lot with my questions as it's more fun (and Bloss I'm glad I've never seriously pee'd you off, we do have such civilised arguments, I like to think!!) Basically I didn't realise you could be so relaxed with this routine. When I think back to the early months with dd, she was quite predictable when it came to her naps, I could work out when she would sleep and how long for quite easily, so again I could enjoy some 'me' time. These shifted at times every few months, but always changed into some kind of 'routine' very quickly. I've just had weird thought! What if dd was actually following GF's routine without me knowing it - how foolish would I look then!!! But seriously perhaps I was just lucky as dd wanted to follow her own pattern? Another question I'd like to know would be although you say you may have to miss out on things because of nap time, what if there is a planned trip to somewhere for the day, visiting relations etc. What would you do then? I was just thinking how I usually time a long journey to co-incide with nap time, but don't mind if she falls asleep on the way back either even if it means she's up 'til late that night as she falls back into her pattern by the next day, is that true for CLB's? (see, I resisted the temptation to put Gina-philes there, I must be mellowing in my old age!)

One last thing, does the book go up to 22 months? If so what is the recommended nap time and is it just one a day? dd usually sleeps from 1.30 or 2.30 for around 2hours, and has a bedtime of 8.30pm which she usually sleeps til 7.30 - 8.30am. Just out of curiousity you understand...

Lizzer.... I knew that in time you'd see it "our" way ;-)
GF has never stopped me living my life so if I take your example, yes I'd try to plan the trip around her schedule but that's not always possible ... I would still make the trip (and I have in real life !). And if she fell asleep when she wasn't suppose too, no big deal, she will fall back into the pattern. For any routine you need some consistency so those trips shouldn't happen daily of course but there is no problem in doing them once a week when they are very young and 2 or 3 times a week after.

As for your DD, she is doing what GF recommends a long nap once a day after lunch. And she seems to me like she is on a Ford routine !!!!!!!!!!!! You have a 830 to 830 routine rather than a 7 to 7 but it's the same. I am shifting DS (23 months old) to 730 to 730 and he naps for 2 hours at 1PM. .... how similar ??!?!?!?!!?

It seems to me GF follows our babies routine and has made a lot of money from her books helping some babies who perhaps dont really understand the signals of sleep etc.

Pupuce, I was about to be shocked, but then I saw Joe's message (Joe, is it the original you or is there another person called Joe1??) and I think she has a BIG point, one that I hadn't thought about before (duh!)
As Bloss has said on previous thread's she was really having a bad time with her son's sleeping habits so turned to GF. And as Pupuce has said she likes to be organised about sleeping patterns so it's helped her. I really can't believe that I'm backing down on this big style! But if I had had a really bad sleeper (and dd's not been brilliant but better than some) and someone came along with a book for what? A tenner? Teling me it would sort out all my problems, I would want to believe it and buy it anyway. She must have made a small fortune out of parents who are exhausted out of their minds (a-ha, I knew I could twist it around again!) what a manipulating so and so!

Message withdrawn

Same me Lizzer.

Oh it's not fair, I've run out of argument on this one for now, I can see both sides of the coin at last! No, but seriously you know I never really hated it all that much (as compared to such things as dummys!! (joke)) I'm no-one to talk about spending money to ease the stress of parenting or else I wouldn't own 2 books on raising children, or a teletubbies video for that matter! What are we going to do now though Bloss?? We simply must have opposing views on something! I'll have a think and get back to you...

Joe, I thought it was a very 'you' like statement so am glad you are you (what?!)

I've just got GF's second book (someone's got the fisrt book out already!) from the library today. So far, all I've read about is expressing milk!!

Suedonim, not sure I understand what you mean... is that good or bad ????
GF has interesting (common sense) advices, regardless of the routines. The expressing milk business is one I followed with my first child and I found it quite helpful. I didn't do it with number 2 because I had way too much milk for the first 6 weeks.

Sorry for confusing you, Pupuce - what I meant was, I got the book this morning and have only had time to look at one page, which was about expressing milk, something I don't recall anyone mentioning here. (That's not to say they haven't, of course!!! My memory is failing me nowadays ) I'm looking forward to reading it, actually.

Sorry for confusing you, Pupuce - what I meant was, I got the book this morning and have only had time to look at one page, which was about expressing milk, something I don't recall anyone mentioning here. (That's not to say they haven't, of course!!! My memory is failing me nowadays ) I'm looking forward to reading it, if I can remember where I put it.....