When your child's best friend is from a "chaotic" family - anyone want to talk?

[lingle]

In our case DS2 and his friend X are both 5. X has mum who suffers from depression and phobias, dad who's just had to leave the home under restraining order after hitting mum and sister while drunk, two lovely teenage sisters that do a lot of the parenting, one of whom is suffering from depression, and two other brothers aged 6 and 3. All the children attend school daily in a scruffy but accurate version of school uniform.

The teachers are very positive about the friendship saying it has been really good for my DS2 - that he and X have both had their developmental problems but when they get together they "complete" each other. Which is a lovely thing to hear and makes me feel grateful and loyal to X's family. I'm also a bleeding heart liberal so think it's bad for everyone if my son's friend's family are treated as pariahs (which they are) on our playground. Plus in my family growing up we had two things going on - undiagnosed mental illness and occasional violence. So those things are not outside my experience (though the drink, suspected drug use and poverty/poor money management are).

But the teachers caution me against sending DS2 to X's house because it is too "chaotic". If I bring X and sometimes his brother to our house on a playdate, I get comments from teachers the next day like "have you been babysitting again?". It's as if they struggle to believe I'd actually want to be friendly with this mum. So that's weird. They've referred the family to social services.

Other teacher friends have told me "not to get involved".

But my instinct is that the best thing for my son is for me to treat the mother with respect. The mother and daughter both seem to be opening up to me a bit more - sharing stories about the latest social services report and whether the father should be able to see the little ones. My feeling is that it's safer for my child if I am "involved" to this extent because then I know the real story, rather than just responding to various vague descriptions like "chaotic". One thing that helps a lot is that they are not needy. They never ask me for anything - no requests for favours, etc.

Obviously it would be a lot more convenient if his friend came from a stable background but hey ho - there's nothing I can do about that.

anyone else got a comparable situation? anyone want to share thoughts?

Gosh. I wouldn't be happy sending my DD over to play at a home as chaotic as the one you describe, but by all means encourage your DS to invite his little friend over to play at your house as often as possible - it will do both of them good to play in secure, loving surroundings.

i can't see why there would be a problem, since you aren't sending your son to their house and they aren't looking for anything from you. they sound like they have a hard enough time, to be honest, without being treated as pariahs by all the fine upstanding members of the community who would be the first to blame this unlucky woman if her children do go off the rails. isn't that kind of attitude exactly why parts of the uk's cities have just been burned down?

good for you. the little boy will benefit from seeing and being welcome in a stable home, and the whole family will benefit from being treated with respect by at least some of the community they live in.

Teachers should NOT be discussing this child'shomelife with you. That is a SERIOUS breach of confidentiality!

Are you posting because your ds has been invited over to his friend's house and you're unsure? Or just because of someone's comments?

Some, not all, of ds' school friends have homes that are, well, I don't know, more sweary and not as secure as ours but I know that the children play happily together and I trust the mums to look after him. Is that what you mean or are you worried about exposure to drugs, alcohol, violence etc?

I think it's important to teach our children to respect people and see people as individuals and not to be judgemental, so you are doing the right thing by allowing the friendship and inviting the little boy round yours.

I wouldn't allow him to go to a playdate at theirs on his own, maybe when he is older, and when you know them better.

The teachers should not be disclosing this information, but it goes on.

My DS1 is friends with a little boy at pre-school and I am aware that the family are under Social Services- they have invited me and DS1 over during the holidays and I fully intend on going. They seem like nice people. I know the teachers talk about them derogatory too. It makes me sad.

thanks these are all helpful. Wellies, I'm honestly not sure why I'm posting - I think I wanted to test out my instinct that this whole "why would you want to be with them unless you were doing it out of Lady Bountiful charity?" attitude is bad for everyone - me and my son included. Stripeywoolenhat - yes, that's exactly it - the "fine upstanding members of the community" don't want to know. Their instinct is to keep away. I can understand that a mum who feels her child is vulnerable to being sucked into a troubled way of life might want to actively steer the child towards "safer" families, but what excuse do the established confident middle class families have? One of them sympathised but said he would not allow her child to a.n.other child's house because it was a "smoking household" - but what message does that send to a.n.other child?

Colditz - yes, I felt very uncomfortable about this. If there was a suspicion of child abuse them I would hope their procedures allow them to warn me, but that isn't the case here (the sister who was hit is 18). And they way they talk to X's mum I find a bit strange too - I've heard them say "I see you haven't contributed to the school trip, do you wish to make a contribution" in front of all the other parents and I've seen that she felt humiliated. I don't blame the staff but I think they focus on the children and maybe feel angry and judgmental with the parents.

I did let DS2 stay there for 10 minutes yesterday while I got DS1. I could see that X's mum was having a "good day", (her depression is the kind that makes you hide away so I usually know if it's a bad day because the sisters come to the door instead of her) both sisters were there and it was morning (so very unlikely to be dad drinking time). It was nice to say "thank you for having him" to them.

I think I identify with X a bit. I have a searing memory of a friend telephoning her father to ask him to take him away from my house because of the violent rowing downstairs .

I would honestly point out to the school that their confidentiality procedures will get them so farin the shit that they can'tdig out with a shovel if they don't stop mouthing off to other people about this poor child (and poor woman's) home life, and further more, NOBODY else should know whether or not she has contributed to school trips because these discussions should be private.

I would suggest that next time a member of the school starts, say "Oooooh, you may not realise thise (although I can assure you they damned well do ) but everyone can hear you and that's not very good confidentiality practice, I would HATE to have my business discussed with otherpeople and I'm sure it's actually against the law"

Sorry but the school's attitude has made me very very angry.

And as a child we always hadwaifs and strays floating around our house, my mother has her problems but she is generous to a fault if somene is having a rough time - child or adult.

thanks colditz. are you a teacher by the way?

Funnily enough I think it's the dark hints that are more damaging and more isolating than the breaches of confidentiality. Now that I'm hearing the real story from the family, that's actually less scary that what I'd been imagining.

I'm quite glad someone else feels angry though. When X's big brother wanted to come to our house too, he developed a strategy of telling the teachers he was coming with us! when the teacher brought him to me and I had to explain that he wasn't coming I felt embarrased and said "his little brother has built it up so much he probably thinks it's like Buckingham Palace".

The teacher responded by saying "ah lingle, to him, it probably is"
I waited for it and yes! it came, right on cue...
"Our children are so lucky" she said.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Bloody hell! I'm a teacher with several families such as the one you mention, all with social services involved. There is NO WAY I would behave in that way. If anything, we try to help the families to integrate with the other parents and children, not alienate them further! Hearing stories like these makes me despair as teachers like these give the rest of us a very bad name.

Hi Lingle, my DS had a best friend from the age of 7 years old who came from a similar family and the school actively warned us away from him ! That was 16 years ago though - so am shocked that things don't seem to have changed that much. Anyway, DS and his friend were kindred spiirts and inseperable for much of their childhood. The friend usually came round to ours but from about 12 years DS would sleep over there occasionally. They went their seperate ways when my DS moved away to Uni but still meet up for a drink when he's home. I also come from a family that has hidden alcohol issues, but because my parents were professionals who spoke nicely, no one guessed! I would use your own judgement - for my part I can say that that friendship made my son very happy.

Not saying teachers should be disclosing anything but I do think to a certain extent the passing on of knowledge about other families (yes, we can call it gossip!) does serve some purpose. It means you can use your own instinct/judgement when deciding the level of interaction you feel comfortable with. That way, for example, I can decide not to send ds home with the girl who brought in a used needle from her house or with the boy whose mother leaves her 3 year old out playing in the middle of the street until dark, or I can send him home with the boy whose mother is in prison for shoplifting but whose father is a caring stable person. Information does help.

thanks Sara.

yes - that's it. there's no attempt to integrate the family.

it's a prosperous town but with a large number of vulnerable families - it ought to be exactly the place where integration can take place.

"because my parents were professionals who spoke nicely, no one guessed"

hi constantcraving, again, you've put your finger on it. That's what I find repulsive about the whole "some people are not as lucky as us with our perfect lives" attitude. A lot of families have mental health and drug/alcohol/violence issues and I think poverty just takes away the means of hiding those issues.

"Information does help"

yes, exactly welliesandpyjamas.

I already had to see the head at one point because I could tell that they thought I'd taken X's brother because no one had turned up whereas in fact it was by arrangement with the mother. I said "if you are gathering evidence about this family, you want to make sure it is the right evidence don't you?" which made her put her common-sense hat on and say "yes" and listen.

Another way information would help is that X(5) has told all his friends that his dad "is in prison" (not true - but he was taken from the house in a police car which is the last time X saw him). Another mother (young single mum determined her son won't get mixed up with wrong crowed) said "I will make sure my boy doesn't associate with X" as a result. So X's mum is being avoided even more although she and her daughter are the victims of this crime, not the perpetrators. The teachers probably knew the true position but couldn't correct X in front of his classmates/parent volunteers I guess.....

Can't stop so many apologies for brevity (and for not reading every post) - of course your ds and X should be friends and if you can bring some order and light into his life by loving him and sharing your home with him then fantastic - he needs to not be some kind of social paraiah - what kind of child would we be turning out into the community later? If you are able to extend that to his immediate family then even better - if not you then who else is going to think of his mum/siblings? Maybe by extending the hand of friendship others will open up to this family and help to integrate them into the school community. It can be hard and there do need to be boundaries e.g. we had a mildly similar situation with ds2 and a chum at school - he didn't go to theirs but we did meet often in the park and he came to ours. Both have since moved but I hope that the friendship worked some good (for both children).

thanks for another nice post.

I have similar-ish sort of situation which is not working out so well and I am now regretting my bleeding heart liberal tendencies so I guess I want to sound a note of warning.
There are some important differences though in that I met the other mum at a toddler group so our DC were pre-school age and it was not their own friendship as such.
I've known this lady for about 2 years and our DC have been to play at one anothers houses, gone on trips etc. Our lives are very different as she is a single mum, on benefits and from a hard background and I'm a middle class, married professional with a relatively comfortable life.
Over that time there have been slight awkward issues eg should I pay for everyone on outings to avoid her DD missing out or is that patronising. I have also disagreed with some of her parenting choices but didn't say anything as I'm of a live and let live persuasion.
I was really shocked when last year her DD was taken into care and a lot of issues came out that I had no idea about. I honestly had no idea things were so bad. Since then I have wound up getting embroiled in the whole thing- she is round nearly every day for hours on end, I'm under constant pressure to lend money which she has no hope of repaying or if not actual money use of my phone, computer etc. I have a newborn baby and I really resent the intrusion now as do DH and DD. Its hard to pull out as she has no-one else but some days I do ignore calls and pretend to be out or asleep.
Its good that they don't ask you for anything but I would say from bitter experience that you do need to put some boundaries and not give more time/ money etc than you are able to sustain.

hi mamadoc thanks for that thoughtful post.

I feel for you and understand your story. our antenatal group had similar - one baby died, the young single mother was already very vulnerable, she had a similar bottomless pit of need that two other antenatal group members ended up filling for a year. It coloured their whole experience of having their first babies. I confined myself to regularly marking anniversaries (mothers' day, birthday, day of death) with hand-written letters, cards and flowers and pulled up the drawbridge to anything else. If felt selfish but you've used the key word "sustain" - anything more than that wasn't sustainable.

I will definitely avoid any trips where there is an adult present - that money issue sounds very awkward. I'm comfortable paying for children because I would pay for my friends' children. I've rearranged my ideas for DS2's party - it will be at our house now, not at an out of town play centre. I will also keep reminding myself that I'm doing this for selfish reasons - it isn't in my interests for my son's friend's family to be pariahs.

Hi, I'd be grateful if I could bump this thread and reconnect with some of the helpful posters. my DS and X are still best friends.

X's family life continues to be troubled, one of his sisters has left home. X was not himself at all for a month or so but things improved greatly once his father started being allowed to see the children again.

I had an awful dilemma two months ago: X's mum was going away for a week with a new boyfriend, eldest sister was looking after the little boys but had a work clash one afternoon and evening. The mum asked me to pick up the kids from the child-minders' at 6 then take them to their house at 8 where her friend (whom I've never met) would wait for them. I had a sleepless night then texted saying no, on the grounds that it was inconvenient and the youngest brother might be upset. I'm so glad I did this - otherwise there would have been no going back- I would have started resenting and judging the mum.

The children have been placed on the "at risk" register, X's mum says she doesn't know why. Her relationship with social services seems to focus on how untidy her house is (I think it's the kind of depression where the first thing that goes is any sense that things would feel better if your immediate environment was tidy). It's an antagonistic relationship - I don't know how much it's helping. I struggle to believe that's social services' biggest concern. I imagine that they are worried that she has a history of relationships with men who have treated her badly and so therefore someone may treat the kids badly. And in the past she will have taken some drugs so she may turn to them if/when the depression hits.

A friendly professional whom I know personally has suggested that the family might be better off self-referring to Barnados. We're not at a point where it would be appropriate for me to suggest this but if another crisis hits (ie the depression really kicks in again), does anyone know if this would be a sensible thing to suggest? Or am I doing more good just by being a "safe" face in the playground but continuing to have a "thus far and no farther" attitude to how much I can be involved?

sorry, should add though that the teachers no longer express surprise about the boys coming with me once a week or so. That seems to have accepted.

sorry, don't really know why I'm posting - it's the "at risk register" thing that's just making me so sad.

thank you, yes I felt that it was wrong at the time.