Not sure where to put this so here goes.

[TheOriginalFAB]

First of all I know I am making a lot of mistakes and don't appear to be able to take on board any advice I am given. There are reasons for that but not the point of this thread so can we please leave that aside and not turn this into kick fab thread which has happened before. Thank you.

I have 2 boys of 5 and 10 and a daughter of 7.

Lots and lots of fighting and lying about who has done what. Sometimes they play so nicely together it is lovely and noted as it so rarely happens. In the past they have been known to argue and fight all day and then be begging to sleep together at bed time.

Tonight dd was sent to bed for punching ds1. DS2 was put to bed as it was his time. DS1 went to bed to read. Words were had about something ds1 had said and a little while ago he came down with a note.

It said he went to work with daddy today and did school work all day just so he didn't have to be with his sister and brother. He said about a time when he noticed his sister looked sad at school and she was mean to him and shouted at him when he moved a spider from her room. He wrote about the time 2 years ago when his brother was poorly and he was really worried about him. He tries to be nice to them and they are horrible back.

Some how (after dh and I talked to ds1) dh said we are not consistent. We tell them to tell us if one hurts another and then either tell them to sort it out themselves or do nothing. I have said we have tried different things to see what works. I know that dh blames me for them being naughty.

He doesn't agree with me that they hate each other. DS2 was mad with me s I wouldn't let him have an ice cream so he said he couldn't wait until the cat died (she is poorly) and it would be good if his sister died. DH said he doesn't mean those things.

I just feel so sad that they feel like that, that they even think to say things like that.

One of the reasons we had lots of children (lots to us!) was because I have no family and my BIL is not having any so DH wanted his children's children to potentially have cousins and fun growing up around lots of other children like he had. Seems like we had children for it to be a nice thing for them (though for us too of course) and it hasn't worked out. I know our children can't be nice or like each other because we want a happy family life but it seems like something else we got wrong.

I am taking a big chance being honest like this as usually I get a lot of criticism, and while I don't want that, I will take a chance if someone can please help us and help one very sad little boy.

This post doesn't offer any suggestions but I just wanted to say that I didn't get on very well with my brother during childhood. We would go from being best of friends to being physically afraid to be around him and locking myself in the bathroom because I was so scared.
We would both deliberately do things to get the other in trouble as well, including lying to our parents.
I remember writing a letter to my parents telling them how I was going to run away because I hated / scared of my brother.

However when my brother moved out of our parents house to go to university we started to get on with each other, and now we are extremely close. We chat every day, we talk about everything. I think we needed the distance.

Thank you for all your posts.

DH has gone to work.
The kids are still in bed.
I am about to start reading Siblings without Rivalry.
I plan to spend a lot more time with them today and to leave the chores.
Wish me luck.

SUCCESS!!!!!

DS2 - Mummy, X ate all the cheerios.
Me - Does that make you feel sad?
DS2 - Yes. Mummy I want Y and X to go to Nanny's so I can have time with you.
Mummy - Okay, I will see what we can do.

DS2 went off happily and is now chatting to DD.

DS2 came in and said X keeps saying I ......
Me - does that make you feel sad?
DS2 - yes.

DS2 goes to get dressed.

Keeping this up for sure.

i grew up one of five and we really hated each other, now we are grown we have the most intense bond of love and respect borne out of a lifetime of shared experiences the goes beyond what we have with best friends or other halfs. The funny thing is, my parents have no knowledge about most of my siblings and my shared memories. Its genuinely wonderful to be part of a large family, you are doing fine with your DC's. Some things they have to sort out themselves, with Mum and Dad a sort of benign presence like a safety net in the background.

Fab - that sounds great! Hope it keeps working :)

Still doing it and still going well. Thinking before I say no so saying yes more often so the kids are happy and are being lovely to each other and helpful.

Hi Fab,
I've seen some of your posts before and I actually remember one where people piled in to tell you that you don't listen etc. I was very sad for you but, as it kept going back on stuff that I knew nothing about, I kept out of it.
You've been given some great advice here.. and it has made me resolve to re-read my How to Talk and Siblings without Rivalry, both of which were very helpful, but probably do need occasional re-reading to see them in the light of the problems of that moment in time..
I was also going to say that I think it's a great idea that you posted this in Parenting. i love Chat, but sometimes things can get too general and go off on too many tangents. Parenting is a great place to talk about just that, parenting.
And finally, waffle, waffle .. but I'm one of 5 and we fought a LOT as kids.. with plenty of very nasty incidents. Among the 5 of us now there are all sorts of different bonds.. some closer than others.. but fundamentally, we are 5 very different people who life just threw together.
I wish you all the luck in the world!

Thank you. It is all still going well.

It is hard knowing we probably had more babies than we could manage but I couldn't be without them. I think the age gap is not great for the personalities of the children but we are in the real world and hopefully we will get there and all will be well.

One of DS1 or DD has lied so am trying to deal with that at the moment. DD has form for lying this week...

My friend has 3 children, I don't see her any more as we live far away but keep in touch via fbook. She spent a day alone with each of them doing their choice of stuff- a girly day at a salon having nails done with her DD, a day at a science museum with her autistic eldest DS and a fun day with the baby. She took pics and I could see how thrilled the kids were to have a full day just to them. I thought if it was such a lovely idea. Maybe you could do something like that?

I know the kids are desperate to do that but it is getting the in laws to have the other 2 for three days. DH has tomorrow off so we are all off to the beach but at the weekend one of us could take a child out on both days and then the remaining child can have a day next weekend.

I'm with You fab, as I said before, I have 3 girls around the same age as yours & the logistics of one 2 one time with them is probably impossible!

Fab- your op actually made me feel better about my own squabbling 3! I have dd1 (7), dd2 (5) and ds (3) and their behaviour towards each other sometimes makes me feel desolate.

I am an only, and really wanted the whole big family thing too. DH just laughs and says that this is what siblings are like. i think someone upthread is right when they say that we might have slightly unrealistic ideals about the whole big, happy family thing!

I'm earwigging in to all the advice you have been given, but I can comiserate about the whole when-to-interfere thing. Mine come whining to me every minute if I give them any encouragement to do so, and it's nigh on impossible to get the truth about who did what first to whom. When it gets my head spinning, I just split them up, and insist they play apart for a while. Just to be contrary, they seem to hate that!

I feel for my eldest dd, too. She is far more caring and nurturing than the younger savages children, and they take her stuff and break it which really gets to her. They know they aren't allowed her stuff, but they blame it on each other

I wish I had more time to spend one-to-one with each of them, but even that becomes a bone of contention when I do. No matter how fairly I try to do it, they always perceive that they are being hard done by somehow

The one thing that keeps me going is the times they are genuinely close- when ds sneaks into bed with his sisters, or when they cuddle before the girls get on the school bus. Deep down, I think they will sort it out ok between them, and I'm sure your 3 will too.

So no advice (I am crap at dealing with it myself ) but wanted you to know you aren't alone, and I think you are doing a fine job!

I have 4 DC's and DD2 was truly awful to DD3 when they were growing up, hated her from the minute she arrived - to the point where I couldn't leave them alone in the room together for fear she would actually kill her sister.
It was awful to live with and I think it had quite an effect on my other 2 DC's as well.
I just wanted to let you know that now they are older they are so unbelievably close and such good friends. I don't know how it happened but it did. There is hope!

Mine were just the same, Fab. At times I despaired, DS1 seemed to hate DS2 so much - like Glasscompletelybroken said, from the moment he was born. And I have a DD too.

I found I could never work out what had happened in any scrap, or who had started it. Everyone lied, or at least embellished the truth. In the end, I stopped trying to unravel the he said/she did stuff, and just sent the participants to their rooms until the air had cleared they were prepared to play nicely. Often the threat of this was enough to calm them down.

In the end, they have to learn to solve their own disputes, and that there has to be give as well as take. Mine are much better now, although far from perfect (They are in their teens).

OK - I work in a school and these ideas are just an interpretation of things that work in the classroom and also some things that my friend in Canada does with her 5 boys...

Could you set up some "house rules" with the children..."we are kind to each other, we do as adults say, we look after the things in our home, we listen to children and adults when they are talking to us etc. Also get the children to agree on the punishments for not following the rules. And constantly refer to the rules.

Also could one of the children be mediator, so if it kicks off with 2 of them, the third one (with your help) helps them to talk things through and sets the punishment - would take a bit of pressure off you and get them to take more responsibility for their actions.

Some sort of "marbles in the Jar" reward system, it they play nicely, do their chores, they get a marble in the family jar. When full they get to have a treat like cinema trip, day out or baking activity. It works best if they agree on the reward beforehand.

My Canadian friend also has "Date night" with a different child one night each week. They get to spend 1:1 time with Mum for a whole evening. They do loads of things but not all of them are manageable in the UK, but during the Summer, you could pop to the park or go to coffee shop or just allow them to stay up on their own with you for a bit longer than the others, watch a movie or play board games etc.

For what its worth, my brother and I hated each other till adult hood! Even now we would never think to phone each other, and mainly only meet up at family do's or at my Parents. Think my parents are quite upset that we are not closer but we have such different personalities, I dont think there is anything that they could have done differently!

Thanks everyone for your posts. We went to the beach today and did have a nice time though dd moaning about sand in her knickers was annoying.

I have been reading the siblings without rivalry book and what has really helped is me verbalising their feelings when they come to say X has done something to them. That is usually enough and they go off and play with the one they were just moaning about. I still struggle when one is lying. It took about 2 hours yesterday for dd to admit to it and even then it was more a I could have misheard admission.

I could try sending them to their rooms to calm down but the innocent one would not like that and sometimes it feels like the innocent one is being punished/disciplined because we don't know who did what.

I am hopeful though that we will get there...

Good luck to every one else as well.

BTW we used to do the house rules and the kids liked adding to them and letting the others know when they were breaking them, but I took them down as I was when someone came round and saw them. I got a bad vibe from them.

I have 4 who can and often do fight like ferrets in a small bag.
2 minutes after snarling like tigers trying to kill each other, they are giggling & rolling around together like love-struck puppies. They take any rift so much more seriously than I do.

I wouldn't dare be half as honest as you, FAB. I have some rather chronic problems with DC, and being skewered by MN wouldn't help.

You have read the threads on here about awful things people did to and with their own siblings? Yet usually turned out to be okay, they definitely aren't telling the story in the context of what awful parents/childhood/siblings/etc. they grew up with. Stories that if anyone posted today it was their kids doing that, they'd be hung drawn & quartered by MN. Really helps me put some of the sibling rivalry in perspective.

My mother very deliberately pushed her brother off a roof, breaking both his arms. She adored him and they were very close until his death 41 yrs later.

urk, typo! So much LESS seriously....

ragged - use the message poster facility if you want to talk. I will listen .

Haven't got time to read all now but just wanted to say that something I do with mine when they are fighting and telling tales on each other is to say "now, lets all be nice to each other" or "we don't hit each other", "we treat each other nicely". I say it to both of them. That way they know what behaviour is ok and what's not acceptable, no one is getting away with anything naughty they have done, but also I am not chosing a child to believe as it's often hard to figure out who is telling the truth and I don't want to get that wrong.

Not sure if this helps.

It does, thanks.

my dd is currently very back chatty and says Aren't you going to do anything about it? when she tells me ds has done something.

I have one child and 2 DSC's. DP has always had the policy of not tolerating any kind of snitching/back stabbing and the older 2 have always got on fine, not best buddies and often quite distant, but not openly hostile to each other.
Siblings do not always get on as kids, at least not all the time!
Sounds like your new techniques are working well.