DD found stealing - MN jury please

[abeautifulbutterfly]

Yesterday out of the blue I was called into school because DD1 (7) has been found to be stealing stuff. She and her friends had this project going where they were saving up things and making plans for a zoo they are going to open when they grow up.
They started by taking things of their own (soft toys, stickers etc) into school to collect and later sell in their zoo shop to raise money to buy more animals. But it now transpires they have been taking school stuff (coloured paper, pens, teaching aids from cupboards, despite having specifically been told not to) and worse, things from their classmates' pencilcases (cartridges, rubbers, rulers). They collected these things in a big bag in the after-school club room.
She and a friend also found a boy's purse at swimming and the friend went and bought sweets for them both and maliciously destroyed the boy's school ID card(though my DD didn't do this she was fully complicit and ate the sweets). They attempted to deny all charges when found out, and getting the truth out of them was like getting blood out of a stone, even though the head started the talk very well IMO by saying that if they told the truth and cooperated then yes they would have to take some consequences but that from tomorrow - clean slate. TBH we still don't know how much money they spent because they are not really very clued up when it comes to money (we are in a country where this is their first year at school).
So head, teacher and we are naturally very cross, though no shouting went on at school, and they have a raft of punishments/consequences. Their end-of-year report will reflect this and they will possibly lose treats such as trips etc.
For my part I have said:
from now on she is to take nothing except school books, pencil case and food to or from school (no toys, or the other kgs of crap that usually get carted around
she is to accept no presents (stickers, stationery etc) from any other children
and I will be policing both of the above by checking bag before leaving home and before leaving school. Also teacher has asked us to agree to bag and locker checks if any suspicions. I have agreed
the zoo project is disbanded
she must apologise in person to boy and his parents (she has paid half of the money back that is missing)
I have confiscated all money boxes, pocket money, purses and random bits of change, put them all in a big bag and said that if I find any money in her room/on her person I will assume it to be stolen.
All these sanctions are in place till end of school year and may be lifted later.
I really want this to be a shock to her and nip it in the bud. I really don't think they were doing it maliciously (except the ID card but my DD had no part in that) but they didn't think of the consequences from the other side and they need to see that it was stealing and how it affected the other children and how it will affect their reputation. If it had been once I would have reacted differently and less severely I think.
Am I being too harsh? (And sorry for the epic)

no,not too harsh at all imo!!!

what a terrible start to her school years. how is she? apologetic or not too bothered?

I think the school have handled it remarkably well, and that you are right in all the sanctions you impose.

I would make it clear to her that if nothing comes up in searches once the summer holidays come around, she can have things back, but keep an eye on not taking loads f stuff into school in the new term.

Damn, message gone awol.
ILT: mortified but only apologised on prompting (she is not hot on empathy and has a serious problem with addressing/being addressed by adults directly, so this has been agony for her - but tough!)
I made her tell DH herself (he was late in last night - I told him but told him to act as if he didn't know, and to impose a couple of the punishments I gave her so as she would see we are all together in this but not adding more IYSWIM).
The worst punishment so far seems to have been missing bedtime story last night while she was rounding up all her money for confiscation)

I would say the best check of how to approach it is really to try to put yourself in her shoes.
Then I would try to work out exactly what the problems are and think long term about how you can work on those. It seems she got carried away with her zoo idea without thinking through the consequences and she seems to have followed other children even when they were doing wrong. You want her to be able to think more for herself, think through all the consequences of actions and follow her conscience. To me, your relationship with her will be important in this: getting her to see you as a role model more than her friends as well as keeping her talking to you, telling you about what she is involved in and talking over problems with you (chats like: "Paula wanted to destroy this ID card and I didn't know what to do").
Personally I would try to find out her side of the story, how she felt, where she feels she is possibly being wrongly accused or adults are misunderstanding her intentions etc.. I would then show her very clearly that I am listening to her in that. I would say something like: "I understand that you see it this way....".
But, I think the steps you are taking getting her to apologise to the boy and making clear the limits between her property and other people's property (stopping "presents" etc.) are a really good idea.
Probably most of the stuff you are doing is fine: just make sure you concentrate really hard on your relationship and on showing her that you're on her side - you can't afford for her to see you as not on her side and so no longer a reference for her. I would try to give her the message that she IS trustworthy and you DO trust her (I'd probably leave her with her money), because otherwise she could fulfil your expectations that she will continue stealing just because she feels you see her that way and so that is "how she is" or because she feels humiliated and rejected that you don't trust her.
In case you're interested, Richard Weissbourd's "The parents we MEAN to be" has a section on children being involved in immoral behaviour at school and ways of dealing with it.
As you say, I think the idea of giving them a clean slate is a good one...

Actually I'd recommend the whole of the Richard Weissbourd book!

Simic thank you for this advice. I know what you mean. I have tried to be demonstrably cross but I ended the day with a big cuddle (and cuddled her to sleep) and told her that I love her and always will no matter what, but atm am not proud of her. I have also said that I want to help her get out of this mess.
I have asked why she did it and she says she just wanted stuff for the zoo, like you say, but I have reminded her that that's what she had her pocket money for - there are certain things I will not buy but she gets a small amount each week which she can spend absolutely as she pleases, no questions asked.
The thing is though, I asked her why they stole the purse and used that money to buy sweets when she had her own and she said she couldn't say (meaning she didn't know how, rather than she wasn't allowed to). She is bilingual and I told her she could tell me in either language but she couldn't. It was like she couldn't express herself. I asked her if she wanted the money for the zoo but she said no. I think she just didn't think.
Having said this I must confess that when I was little my brother and I also went shoplifting for ages, not because we needed or wanted for anything, just because it was fun. When we were found out and made to take the things back to the shops and apologise it ended straight away so that's what I'm hoping for here.
Her lack of initiative/backbone has long been one of the things I worry about and I was really pleased earlier in the year when another friend wanted to play tricks on the other children and she went and told her teacher instead of colluding. (And I praised her for that.) I think this is a question of a herd mentality and things getting out of hand - and, like you say, inability to distinguish between certain boundaries.
I have told her I want to believe what she's telling me, but that it's difficult when her/their stories don't tie up in every case (though I think that's just that they are stressed and terrified). She just says she desn't remember what happened.
But I will take on board what you say about keeping our relationship open and talking.

Hmmm...at first I thought your punishments etc. were spot on, and they still probably are, but then I read what Simic had posted and it made me think. I actually remember a few times at school being complicit in something (i.e. going along with the 'gang') I knew was wrong but not being comfortable or confident enough to stop it, and not being sure how to raise it with my own Mum etc. As a child it's very easy to think that if you ignore something bad it will go away, but it doesn't, and I remember lying awake at night sometimes worrying that my Mum might find out about something that had happened that I knew was wrong. Someone else once stole a rubber from a shop, there was a load of hi-jinx and it ended up in my drawer at school. I was horrified, and it sat there for months like a bomb waiting to explode because I didn't want to touch it but didn't know how to get rid of it. The worry about being accused of being a thief if it was found, was probably the same level for me as the worry about what would happen if I told an adult as this would inevitably lead to me 'dobbing in' the person who actually did steal it from which months of playground nastiness would no doubt ensue. In my 7 yr old head, it was impossible to figure out which was worse, but boy did I worry about it.

My Mum wasn't a draconian horror by the way, far from it, it just felt like if only children knew about it then there was no 'trouble' as such.

So yes I think your punishments are probably fair, but as Simic said it is probably just as important to really talk about what happened, how she felt, why she did it, whether she knew it was wrong, etc. and to make it clear that when things are happening at school that she knows are wrong but she doesn't know how to stop or distance herself, then she can always tell you. Hopefully this should stand you both in good stead for the future in terms of confidence, confiding in you, and not being pressured into things when it comes to boys, alcohol etc.

D

It sounds like you are dealing with it really well - the unconditional love thing is so important in situations like this imho!
As you say, I think it's hard for them to think through what's happening and what to do - somehow their actions go faster than their minds (come to think of it, I still have the same problem!).
I have the same with my dd (nearly 6) that she just can't remember things and definitely can't analyse what went on. Maybe with things where she can't talk about them or doesn't really know what was going on you could "play" it out?? Some time when everything has settled down a bit, play with some dolls or something when one of them sees someone else stealing or something ... to try to help her process the whole thing?
I get the impression though that all the kids we know have a blur of who's is who's. They borrow and lend like mad and children use each other's things without asking or considering the feelings of the child who it belongs to. I think the blur between what belongs to you and what actually belongs to someone else (and maybe the whole "boundaries" thing) is a general problem at present at least around us.
But as you say, I was also always attracted by the idea of stealing at that age - firstly getting something for nothing and secondly doing something "not allowed". I never plucked up the courage although I did keep a rubber which I accidentally took home which belonged to a school friend - somehow for me that was enough of an experiment...

Thanks Deliaskis.
I have said that if she gets into something she knows is wrong but doesn't know what to do she must always tell me or another adult (her teacher is very sweet and hates disciplining them, is also very accessible so I don't think she is a scourge).
I really think they didn't click that this was stealing as they've all been really open and excited about the zoo project (and we mums were all really proud that they were taking an interest in animals - they were copying out pages of nature books!) and learning about the ramifications - we had talks about endangered species and why it was not a good idea just to get on a plane to Africa and nab animals out of the jungle just because it would be cheaper than buying them off other zoos
Having said that, they lied barefaced to their teacher when asked about the wallet and the things taken from the other kids (though I think she could have handled it better and given them an opportunity to come clean in private rather than in front of the class)

BOundaries is definitely a very big issue here - it started off the 4 of them pooling their soft toys and then each getting to choose a couple of them to take home for ever (needless to say these have gone back to their original owners now). And like you say, in class things disappear and swap hands all the time, so it's really only a small step to outright stealing Ughh
OT a little but this week has been such a rollercoaster - Sat I plucked up courage to do a PG test - positive! On the same day I heard my v. close friend's dad had died (I have no family here so they have been my surrogate family - I even called him Dad).
Tues was the funeral, and on Weds all this came out plus I had my first scan to confirm the PG (1st one post-MC) and saw the little heart beating and went all tearful on my poor gyn! Today is Mother's Day here and also our 10th wedding anniv, and we are organising a big party at the weekend to celebrate. From today we have guests coming
There, self-pity over back to being firm but kind Mary Poppins mother

Congratulations on your pregnancy!

You are really having an incredible week! And you still manage to deal with such a difficult situation with your dd in the middle of it all with a lot of thought and care. I hope you get a rest at the end of it! Virtual hugs!
:)

Could the teacher somehow turn the zoo project into a class project? The whole class thinking together putting together a kind of 7 year old's business plan for how they would really set up a zoo (without stealing!)? - including talk with a local zoo manager (invited into school or a visit to the zoo) to ask about where the money comes from, how it is spent, where the food for the animals comes from (I think in our local zoo some is from donations from supermarkets and some bought by the zoo), where the animals come from - the whole class would benefit from the talks you've been having about endangered species... As NeverforgethowmuchIloveyou says, it is such a great initiative and maybe they could learn that with their ideas and motivation, plus a bit of adult guidance to keep out of trouble, they CAN do their project (maybe no actual purchase of wild animals :)). Like that they would also have positive memories of this debacle...

I agree that you need to nip it in the bud.

However, I think as they are only 7 (and as they're just in a reception year) probably quite 'young' 7 year olds, I think the punishments have been a bit too severe - in particular disbanding the zoo project. I think it's a great thing for them to want to do - I think they just need some guidance. I can't see the point or value in not allowing them to continue with it?!

But what a week you are having!! Congratulations on the new baby!!

Lots of hugs, and congratulations on your pregnancy, and wedding anniverary! What a week:)

I think you handled it very well. I always think it is a question of expectation. If your daughter knows and believes that you expect her to be a well behaved, honest child, then she is likely to follow this path. This is just a case of her wandering off the path, and you guiding her back onto it.

Thank you all so much! Simic you have had some mind-blowing ideas and I will talk to the teacher about having a zookeeper in to talk about it. Unfortunately it is end of term in just 3 weeks so I doubt if it will come to anything, at least this year, but who knows, the class stays together, with the teacher, for 3 years, and we have a great PTA so maybe we can do something along those lines next year??

Now, about this nausea ...