Desperate for help with 5 year old's behaviour.

[fifitot]

Sorry this is long..........

I have had a shit morning after a shit night and am thoroughly desperate.

My 5 year old DD is out of control. She refuses to do anything we ask. Not big stuff but normal stuff like putting a jumper on for school, putting toys away etc. Despite mine and DH's best intentions incidents escalate and can culminate in screaming, shouting and throwing from DD. This has recently become worse with her hitting us, calling us abusive names and throwing stuff at us. Tantrums can last for hours.

This morning I am ashamed to say I lost it and smacked her bottom. Not hard but I know that's not the point. I was trying to take something out of her hand as she was going to throw it at me and it all ended up very physical. This of course stopped her in her tracks but I know it's the wrong thing and hate myself for it. This was on the back of her throwing shoes down stairs at my head, narrowly missing the baby and threatening to hit the baby. He was screaming in the background and I was trying to get her to school on time - it was horrendous. She was out of control and after a good half hour of me trying to keep a lid on it and be calm, I then lost it. We had a similar tantrum last night so she picked up where she left off really.

Me and DH are at our wit's end. When our now 10m old arrived we knew it would unsettle her but we seemed to be over that. If anything we over compensate. We make sure she is never excluded and she spends quality time with me on her own to make up for the time I have to spend on the baby. She is not bored, her dad does loads of creative play with her etc. She is loved and we show her this regularly. When she's not in a meltdown mode she is a lovely child.

My temper is not improved by being totally sleep deprived by the baby. He has never slept through and I average 4 hours a night. Me and DH are working on this but not getting very far. On top of this I work 3 days a week with a long commute. frankly I am knackered and at end of my tether.

I have tried time out, confiscating favourite toys, witholding treats etc as consequences. We have been consistent with our methods, trying one for a number of months before realising it has no long term effect. I have tried talking to her but at 5 she doesn't really verbalise why she is so angry at times very well. I don't think she knows.

Has anyone got any tips or ideas. I am so upset that I can't parent and think I must be rubbish. I don't want my DD growing up hating me or turning into a child with deep seated issues. I hate this conflict.

Help!

Poor you . It's tough, really tough, with two when they are this age.

First of all, don't dwell on smacking her bottom. Yes, you lost it, yes, you know its not the way you want to parent. But you're knackered and she was behaving appallingly. I think I would have lost it in that situation. She knows you love her, and so long as you work on anger management for future repeats its no big deal.

Second, 10 months is more than long enough to deal with the arrival of a sibling. If you think you may still be trying to compensate for that (although I'm not sure you are?), then I would stop.

Third, you are totally knackered. Everything is always worse when you're tired, and your tolerance for the children acting up is much lower. It WILL get easier as the baby becomes a toddler, and you get more sleep, so hang on in there.

Fourth - the specific issue of your daughter's behaviour.... I don't have a 5 year old (mine are rising 4 and 2), so I don't really feel qualified to comment. A few questions that might help others to comment though: Is her behaviour bad at school as well? Is her sleep being disrupted by the baby (i.e. is she knackered and therefore stroppy)? Have you tried positive reinforcement rather than/as well as negative, eg star charts?

And also - if your baby's sleeping is particularly awful, and it is negatively affecting the whole household, I would say its not too early to try some sleep training. Might be for the benefit of you all. 4 broken hours a night at 10 months sounds hellish.

Hi,
Just wanted to say that we are in the same boat with our five year old DD, so will be reading replies with interest. We also have a 3-month old baby and a 3 year old. The 5 and 3 yr old fight like cat and dog too, which doesn't help. It is hard work!

That star chart idea is good good good! I think it works better if you give 'points' frequently eg penny in the jar for 30mins good behaviour, 50p 'prize' for 10 in the jar, penny out for bad behaviour. Any chance of a night off? Sleep deprivation is hideous. Good luck!

Thankyou so much for replying and for your ideas.

We are trying to sleep train the baby but it's long and drawn out. He doesn't respond to cc, went 4 hours crying one night so it's too much. We are doing shush pat but it's slow progress. DD sleeps well, he doesn't disturb her I don't think. In fact sure he doesn't.

However I think the star chart is a great idea and not sure why I didn't consider it before. The penny/50p idea is good too as it's tangible to her.

Off to make one now!

PS - feel much better for having got it all off my chest too!

Carrot and stick, carrot and stick....

An alternative version, that we use, is a marble jar - earn small or large marbles for specific behaviours, and rewards for getting 5 or 10 small marbles (or we do 1 large marble = instant treat). Or get taken away for continued bad behaviour even after warning given.

I think they work best if you just focus on one or two very specific behaviours at once, and make it 'SMART' (don't know if you have to do that crap stuff at work, but it means objectives should be Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Timely, ie not at all vague). Also, wangle it so the first few days always end up with a treat, so she's motivated from the start.

Good luck, and with the sleep training as well. That sounds like a whole other thread...

Thanks............yes I haunt the sleep threads zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Yes am very familiar with SMART - they are obsessed with it at work but it is a good set of criteria for behaviour and you are right, better to focus on something specific rather than just 'being good'.

How about working with her for a few days and regressing a bit so that she is treated a bit like the baby. Instead of nagging to put shoes on, put them on for her, put her coat on etc. It sounds like she is feeling displaced and trying to get a reaction/attention and sometimes giving them what they are asking for in that sense helps a bit.

Also watching with interest - my daughter turns 5 next month (2 yr old sibling who she adores). Has stopped listening, screaming at us like a banshee, telling me she hates me etc etc, which I know she doesn't mean but it's still annoying. Again, normal stuff like, getting school clothes out for morning, having a wash, not climbing on the kitchen table....

Have tried withdrawing treats like bedtime story, but I hate myself for doing it and realise that I am only 'parenting' by exerting my power as an adult to withdraw things she likes. Am not sure how a marble jar would work for non-tangible things like 'listening'...any other suggestions?

It seems that everything would be easier if you could get yourself a bit less tired, somehow! - I know how hard this is! Could you take some time off work and just have a bit of a rest (a nice time with the kids - or both of you have a holiday or something?)? Or could you get a babysitter or grandparent to give you a break for a few hours for you to have a sleep?
I think that Mudandmayhem is right that you could give dd a bit of breathing space by giving her what she asks for for a while - it could be that she needs it confirming to her that you love her whatever - i.e. even when she´s behaving like this.
I´ve been reading Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen and found it REALLY good.

Yes - listening is the thing whoamireally - she just doesn't!

Thanks simic - rolling with it a bit may help. Like whoamireally says I don't really like just exerting power all the time.

It's so hard.

We had this with DD after DS was born (4.5 yr gap) and it was truly horrible. But I think that they also get so very tired during the early years at school (some kids seem to manage well, others are just affected for the first year, others might need a couple of years before they start to manage it better) so could your DD be overtired too. With our DD we started to put her to bed around 7, so she'd be snuggled down by 7.30 which sounded reasonable but discovered that earlier might have been better - with DS, he went up at 6.30, snuggled down by 7 and was much better. Looking back, I think DD was probably overtired quite a lot which would come out as bad behaviour (still does when she has a late night) even though she didn't seem tired at the time.

Just so you know, she did get over it all eventually, and I have had soooo much practice at being calm I'm quite good at it now, and she's now lovely.

Thankyou. I think you are right about the tiredness. School really takes it out of her. I think negotiating the learning and social relationships at school at such a young age is hard. She is so well behaved at school too! It's just at home we suffer!

DD was always very good at school too, but they've got to let it all out somewhere if they're feeling it, and of course they feel safest to do that at home. Tis horrible when you are going through it though. I really had to learn calm - I'd always thought I was pretty laid back until DD! I sometimes thought of DD as a learning experience for me, which helped - anything which alters the way you look at things into a more positive way is good.

Sorry I can't offer any practical advice as feel we are in the same boat with DS1 (4 yrs). Just want to empathise with you. I understand why you lost it, it's hard not to feel so utterly awful.