Where, if anywhere, do you draw the line between normal loud "boy behaviour" and bad behaviour, <dare I say it bullying> in pre-schoolers?

[FGM]

I believe that screaming at, and enjoying causing another child to cry, then laughing at the other child and screaming louder and longer is unacceptable .

My friend feels that screaming as I've described is normal for boys

Hi, Im trying to work this out. Is it a friends boy screaming at your girl?

I don't know to what extent you are talking here so I can't judge if his behaviour is normal or verging on bullying (remembering he is only 4 though)?

It could be a case of, this child is very hard work or it could be the case your child is extra sensitive.
Neither is really something you can change right now, they would both grow out of it to a certain extent.

I have a 4 year old boy and I have a group of 5 friends from antenatel. We started off with 5 boys and 1 girl and have added 3 girls and a boy to the mix!

The boys love to shout, roar, shout, roar and generally at this stage we are all totally eye rolling at how annoying this is - Especially the one 4 yr old girl who generally stays clear of them when they are in this mood.

They are boys and boystress and apparently around 4/5 they are at their worst for this.

They love reaction from their roaring and shouting too so if your DC is giving it, it will spur him on even more. Not all boys are the same, unfortunately all 5 of our 4yr old boys are .

They can also be really sweet and sensitive too but testosorone (spelt wrong ) is making a big appearance around this age.

I hope it's just a case of this as he will calm down a bit >>she says hoping this is true!

My second is a girl and is copying her brother - not fair!

I'd 'time out' my kids for screaming and being mean.

I have DSs of 6 and 4.

4 is a tricksy age; whether you believe the whole testosterone boost theory or not!

The behaviour you describe is wholly unacceptable. Boys of this age need a lot of intervention and guidance to learn that rough play and shouting is fine, but that there is a behavioural line that they must not cross.

Mine are taught to stop whatever they're doing immediately if another child shows distress or says 'No' or 'stop' or if an adult asks them to stop.

I do find that I have to be very specific. e.g 'stop hitting, you're hurting your friend. Look at his face - does he look happy? Are you happy that you've hurt your friend'. Instant apologies (even if it was an accident). Remove from play if apologies are not given or if I get cheek. I don't use 'time out' as such, but I tend to say, 'rough boys are not allowed to join in'.

Your DS has a responsibility too. He must learn to use his voice and say STOP with rough kids. If that doesn't work, TELL a friend and/or a teacher. The buddy system works very well; no-one wants to play with the rough kid.

There's a difference though, between generally shouting and being loud, if everyone is enjoying themselves, and shouting on purpose to make someone cry. The first is at worst going to induce a headache in the supervising adults, the second is cruel and should be stopped.

I would say it is relatively normal for a 3/4/5 yo boy to shout/growl etc. Also quite normal for a girl (or a boy) to cry when on the receiving end of this. However, I don't think it's normal at all for the perpetrator to laugh about a child crying. Even my mildly autistic boy (who would shout/growl) never laughed at a child crying when he was that sort of age.

Despite the fact that the growling etc is normal, if I was the parent and another child was being upset by it, I would tell the child to stop doing it.

i actually don't think that screaming is normal for boys... if pushed i'd say i hear girls screaming and shouting a LOT more than boys. I base that on the group of mums I meet up with (we have 8 boys and 7 girls between us)

if a child is screaming in order to upset someone then that is wrong and needs to be dealt with.

i think i would say something to the other child if it happened again and the parent was doing nothing. and if that doesn't work i would take my child to play elsewhere and ignore the screamer

Agree with what has been said my ds loves screaming and shouting with his friends outside playschool, but if one of the other children start showing distress then we teach them to quieten down or stop. Children need to learn that it's ok to express themselves but to respect other people as well.

As a mum of 2 fairly boisterous boys there is NO WAY I would tolerate shouting, screaming or anything physical that resulted in another child crying. It never fails to amaze me how some parents turn a blind eye to what I consider really quite poor behaviour (whereas I have no qualms about telling children off whether they are mine or not .)

I would try & meet your friend without children in future.

Thank you everyone for your responses. It is interesting to hear your experiences of boys of this age- group .

It is also very helpful to me to hear that most people distinguish between having a good time being loud and enjoying upsetting another child. I feel justified in telling this child "No!" and in comforting my child.

I do accept that many mums experience their boys as enjoying being more physical and enjoying making a lot of sound. However, I feel that I don't have to accept that being a boy is a good excuse for the parent to turn a blind eye to unfair behaviour.

I admit that my DD1 is sensitive but I do not accept that that means it's OK for someone else to enjoy making her cry. I am going to help my DD to develop ways of coping with unfair behaviour. With regret; I think we have to avoid the child in question if his mum can't accept me defending my DD from his directed, intentional meanness.

Again, thanks all for helping me work through this!

My 4yr old DS did exactly this to a little girl of the same age last week which made her cry. I was absolutely mortified as i'd never met her mother before and i can't bear the thought of people thinking my DS is a horrible little boy as generally he is a sweet,caring and gentle child. I told him off immediately and told him it was unacceptable for him to shout in people's faces and showed him how upset the little girl was. I also sat him on a chair away from where they were playing to give him some time out.

It's interesting to read that some of you say this is typical of 4 yr old boys as he is definately going through a roaring stage and often roars at my 2.5 yr old DD which again makes her cry. It still doesn't make it acceptable though so i'm shocked that your friend lets him get away with it.

What Bertie said. There's a difference between boisterousness and cruelty. Shouting or roaring at another child is high spirits. Laughing when that child cries is mean. Maybe it's nervous laughter, maybe the laughing child can't figure out what went wrong, but correction is needed, and instruction on the cause and effect, with the hope that one day there will be no more roaring or maybe a glimmer of recognition of when another child has had enough roaring and that it is time to stop.

The friend's child will need a time out and to be told firmly it is wrong to do that. If it happens at friend's house and she ignores it/laughs it off, I would not go there for a playdate any more. If it happened at my house, I would give the kid a timeout myself and tell him it is wrong. I think little girls could just as easily behave like this, though to be fair it is more common in boys I think. If the friend's child did it to a boy I'd give him a timeout and talking to also. It's what parents are there for. The friend is making a rod for her own back if she lets it go - one day she'll be the one being mocked at!

I'd never blame the child for making a lot of noise- I don't think it's fair to label a child .

But do I think it's important to help that child understand what is kind and what is unkind and that enjoying someone else's hurt is not on- even if especially if the recipient is slightly sensitive.

That is what parents are for- helping to negotiate complex human interactions. Sometimes a situation has to be diffused quickly- and a sharp "No" is justified IMO.

There could even be the old 'indoor voice' and 'outdoor voice' thing. The point is to make a child eventually realise that not all behaviour is appropriate all the time. Fine to yell and be boisterous outdoors but not in a confined space. Fine to yell if everyone is having fun (outdoors) but if one of the playmates gets distressed then it's time to stop. The ability to do this develops slowly and it requires parental input to make children notice the cues.

I agree with you about labels for the children, but the behaviour can be called inappropriate, hurtful, etc.