Circumcision confusion

[Perdita1]

Hi there. I'm new here and still trying to find my way around so apologies if Im repeating threads posted elsewhere or posting in the wrong place!

We're going to start ttc at the end of the year but Im already stressing about whether or not, if we have a son, we get him circumcised. My husband is Jewish, which is the only reason it's a possibility. He and his family think it's the most normal thing in the world but I'm not quite so sure. I've never seen one done but Ive been told by Jewish people I have spoken to that it's not a big deal but the thought of putting any child through even the slightest pain just makes me feel sick and I would never forgive myself if anything went wrong.

So I guess my question is, could anyone give me any idea of the likelihood of complications or exactly how distressing it is for a child? I've been told the reason why it's done so young is because there are very few nerves in the foreskin then - is that true? Apologies if Im sounding clueless!

Thanks in advance!

I know alot of people are saying how painful it is, etc, but it is generally the men who push for their sons to have it done, in DHs country (as in many other Islamic countries) they have it done between 2-5 years old - therefore they can remember any discomfort they had, yet they would still choose it for their sons.

mumof2I think the study says more about the state and general deprivation of American men, than the actions of all circumcised men.

my mother is jewish though has no religious views at all. my father is non jewish but for reasons i don't know happens to be circumcised. my brother was circumcised in hospital at birth because it was the 'norm' for them to do it, and i guess having been born 40 years ago in a fairly densely jewish area of london, it wasn't an unusual request.

with both of my sons, my mother 'assumed' i would circumcise and was (inexplicably to me) horrified that I didn't do it. she couldn't understand my argument that i would no more circumcise a boy than i would circumcise a girl.

my brother, the one time i asked him about it, is absolutely incensed that he was circumcised for no medical reason and finds it abhorrent.

somebody else made a valid point that as a non jew, your children will not be jewish anyway, so there really is no reason to do it.

I honestly don't know how anyone can consider doing this to a baby/child unless medically absolutely necessay. It is barbaric.

Perdita - as someone else said, if you had a DD would you cut off her labia if your DH's religion said so? He can have it done as an adult if he feels it's necessary. Please understand it is not painless for the baby - the baby will be in shock so may not cry a lot and may appear 'ok' - but he wont be.

great poems.

I found this; :(

From the Third International Symposium on Circumcision
University of Maryland, May 22-25, 1994:

"Look at these hands.

These hands have taken a newborn baby from his mother's safe warm breast and his father's sheltering arms, and these hands have tied this baby to a cold hard platter and served him up to the circumciser.

These hands have readied the scalpel, even as they caressed the brow of the terrified baby as he struggled for freedom and searched my eyes for compassion he did not find.

A tortured being has sucked frantically on this finger in a hopeless effort to end the agony as his flesh his birthright is ripped from him and thrown in the garbage.

These hands have removed the diaper painfully adhered to the feces-covered wound between his chubby legs.

These hands have shielded my ears from his screams.

Nurses of America, I did not become a nurse to hurt babies, and neither did you.

In 1992, with over 20 other nurses at St. Vincent Hospital in Santa Fe, New Mexico, I gave notice to my employers and declared I would no longer be an accomplice in the atrocity that is infant circumcision.

I have reclaimed my tattered soul and begun the process of becoming whole again.

I am a conscientious objector in the war against our infant brothers and sons, and it feels wonderful.

Nurses of America, wipe the blood from your hands and join me!"

Mary Conant, RN

(Mary Conant is one of the 24 heroic Conscientious Objectors to Circumcision nurses at St. Vincent's Hospital, Santa Fe, New Mexico, and co-founder of Nurses for the Rights of the Child)

www.ratical.org/ratville/MGMprimer.html#fn44

www.circumcision.org

Mumof2... this poem reflects a different set of cirmcustances to a Jewish circumcison. My son was cradled by his grand father, not held on a "cold platter", he was not "torn" from my breast, and I never had to remove a nappy stuck to his "faeces covered wound". His wound was dressed, and with regular nappy changing nothing was left there long enough to stick. Seriously, if faeces are ever left long enough to get caked to even healthy skin, it's too long!

Oh, and babydubs, you said you were leaving this, and then posted again! I notice that those who are against are far more vociferous in their views than those who are, if not actually for, then at least open to the idea. Using emotive words like "butcher" are not helpful, and hardly contribute to helping OP make a decision.
I totally get the comparison with female circumcison, and totally accept that the latter is not acceptable. I think part of the argument is that female circumcison seems (and I know that I don't have all the information) to in part be intended to preserve sexual "purity", and is regularly associated with serious complications (urinary and menstrual retention, infection / septacaemia, problems with childbirth). I wouldn't want to make any comparison with the comparative extents of the two procedures, and I don't believe that I can make a rational argument why so many of us consider circumscison of male babies ok, and of females not.
There is probably nothing I could say to persuade those against to do it, and those vehemently for not to circumcise their sons. And actually, I have no agenda to make anyone change their minds. All I wanted to say, is that after some forethought, DH and I decided to follow a traditional course of action, that all the the male members (excuse the pun!) in both our families have followed. As far as I know (and I could yet be proven wrong, though I suspect I won't) it has had no ill effects. I also know, that if my son decides to live as a Jew, and marry a Jew, him being circumcised will be important. And if he decides not to, it will make very little difference.

my ds was circumcised at a few weeks old.

we had a dr come to the house to do it. he was a qualified professional, and did also have a practice surery, but due to the fact i was ebf, and i didnt drive and had 2 other kids to look after so wouldnt want my dh to take the baby by himself we chose to have it done at home.

the dr came with an assistant dr. he first numbed the area with local anaesthetic, and then inserted a rin on the end of the foreskin.
the procedure took 5 mins, it was painless for ds and he cried for about 10 secs, more out of uncomfortability then pain, he cried a lot more for heel prick etc.

the dr left 2 more syrines of anaesthetic to use if the baby was in pain and also some sachets of antiseptic to use in his bath water for a few days.

i never needed to use the anaesthetic.
there was no problems with nappy chanes, ds wasnt bothered or in pain at all and didnt cry durin them, didnt have any problem urinatin.

after a few days the rin with foreskin fell off, a bit like how the umbilical cord fell off. it was around 3 days.

durin the procedure my dh actually felt more pain then ds lol watchin.

the dr had a sterile table top thin and my dh held ds.

after the procedure ds went to sleep.

female curcumcision is not the same as female enitil mutilation which is an abhorrant practice, it is the same as clitoral hood reduction.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoral_hood_reduction

i wouldnt mind havin that done myself if i could afford it!

It could be said that all circumcision is genital mutilation of a sort.

When ds2 was 4 weeks old he had to have a blood test/transfusion so also a canula.

He was awake and then "went to sleep". I was and commented on this to the paediatrician. Who said that babies often go onto shock when they are in pain. Stunned rather than sleeping iyswim. :(

Leaving it until the child is older isn't about kindness, it's about informed consent.

If an adult decides that their faith, or their link to a particular culture, or a simple desire that their penis should look a certain way, is so strong that they feel they must be circumcised then they can make that decision. Yes, they will remember the operation but so what? They're doing it for strong reasons and so they can make an informed decision about whether the cost (the pain and risk of complications) is worth the benefit.

I simply don't understand the concept of "My faith / cultural background is so strong that I feel it acceptable to have irreversible cosmetic surgery performed on my child without that child being able to have a say."

Uh-oh, this one always gets MN heated.

Personally I don't have any problems with male circumcision (Jewish heritage) - and yes I have seen it being done - but round here it is seen as ALMOST as barbaric as putting cats to sleep so I'll duck out here

homeboys...I have been present at plenty of jewish circumcisions. Not one was done with local anaesthetic. All were done by a medical professional. None resulted in medical complications. Most of the babies appeared no more upset than the average newborn having his clothes removed (remember all the crying about nappy changes and baths that were not quite warm enough?)
For those of us who are expected, for cultural reasons, to put our sons through this, deciding against is harder than going ahead. And in families where is never done, the opposite is true. It would be the same for any cultural decision (though I realise most other traditions do not involve elective surgery!), what about ear piercing? Or head shaving, or early weaning....

Hi,
I have had my son circumcised. He cried more for food than he did during the process. Its an excellent thing. I am not offended by people who don't have their sons circumcised, so I don't see why people should be offended by people who choose to have their sons circumcised. - if you judge because of the so called pain (parents who have found a qualified person will tell you they show a minuscule amount) then surely women who have their sons circumcised could question parents not having it done and putting their son through risk of infection (which evidently would be far more painful)? - My point is its a choice and neither should be put down by the other. It just so happens that we live in a culture that currently believes it to be unnecessary but if we lived in other parts of the world the debate would be weighted heavily on the other side. All I am saying is don't judge so harshly because there are great many pros to circumcision.

What are the "great many pros to circumcision"?

Perdita, as you've probably worked out by now, this is a very emotive subject.
I had both my DS's circumcised for religious reasons when they were both under 2 weeks old. The man who performed it (the same one for both) gave both boys a local anaesthetic. He was actually a Dr as well as someone who performed a small religious ceremony. While it was being done they were a bit upset, but to be honest, I think that was more to do with having their legs gently held more than the procedure itself. The whole process probably took about 10 mins, including getting the boys dressed and undressed. They were both a bit grumpy for about 24 hours, then totally fine. I had no medical complications following the event. No stiches were involved.

I am not going into the rights and wrongs of the procedure. I just wanted to give you some of the facts about what it was like.

I hope this helps. It a very tough decision for you all.

"I dont think leaving them to make their own mind up when older is kinder at all - in the event that they wish they were circumcised they would have to go through a general anaethetic and op on their privates which they would always remember."

And in the event that you have them circumcised and they wish they hadn't been?

What exactly do they do then?