I could cry - someone come and tell me this will end

[maxpower]

DD (4.10) has been getting up at 5am-ish for the last 18 months. As a consequence, she is exhausted and her behaviour is appalling as a result of it. DH is working today so I'm at home with her and DS (4mo). She's had a massive tantrum today resulting in me shouting my head off at her, manhandling her into her bedroom, having to hold her bedroom door shut while she's kicked at it (hurting myself in the process). She's finally stopped. It doesn't normally come to this, but more often and not there's some sort of episode around her behaviour every day. I'm finding it harder and harder to draw a line under each of these episodes (partly because I'm worn out too from her waking us up) and start afresh, letting go of how angry I am with her and being friends again.

A few days in the last week she's actually slept until 7am and her behaviour on those days was impeccable. I praised her all day, thanked her at bedtime, told her how much I'd enjoyed the days with her. I always reinforce her good behaviour in an effort to encourge her but she's got up early again yesterday and today (not entirely her fault as DH has been up v early for work and I'm sure she's heard him and got out of bed). I'm therefore convinced that her behaviour is down to lack of sleep but nothing we've tried to address it has worked.

I don't want to end up disliking her and being in a battle with her nearly every day is so upsetting. While she was screaming and kicking at her bedroom door, I was thinking to myself, 'I don't want to do this, I should find another way of dealing with this,' but I don't know what that is. I try to encourage, persuade, distract her, and diffuse situations - the behaviour today was really a final straw situation, but they are becoming more frequent. I even toyed with the idea of calling my mum or sister and asking them to stay in the house with DD so that I could get away from her for a bit. Please please tell me this won't last forever.

What time do you put her to bed in the evenings?

You have my sympathies. Both my dc's (4.6 and 2.6) jump on me from 6am (that's after some buggering about in the night). Any attempts to discipline them fall apart as they are so stubborn and there is no where to do time out - I do time out for one DC and the other one plays up to get some attention and I can't hold both bedroom doors shut at the same time.

I'm over whelmed and tired and just hoping it's a phase. I can tell them off as much as I like but they ignore me. I also re-inforce good behaviour, bugger all good it does .

They're good at nursery though, it's just me who gets the dreadful behaviour.

earlybird we've tried all different times, at present it's 6.30 with lights out at 7pm. Later ebdtimes just = even less slep for her as she still gets up at 5am

meglet ditto - she was perfectly behaved at nursery and now at school and even if she's with other people eg GP or aunts she's as good as gold. It DH & I she saves it for. I'm just lucky that DS is a really good baby who I can leave in his chair while I fight with DD.

It makes no difference what time my 4yo goes to bed either, he's usually out cold by 7:30pm (his little sister is the one who mucks about at night), but if we've had a long day out or an exceptionally active day he's still fannying about at 6am.

That brings back memories, the holding the door shut. That was my DD too - the boys weren't quite as high maintenance. You might find one of these useful for the sleep training.

It won't last forever. And I think you know that, deep down.

You sound very sensible, just at the end of your tether, which is completely understandable. She's tired, you're tired. You poor things, it must be horrible for both of you.

So it sounds as though if she doesn't have enough sleep, she plays up. Probably because she is over-tired. You mention that your DH wakes early for work - if this is disturbing her, can he be a bit quieter? Use a different bathroom (if you have more than one) to wash etc.

Can you incentivise her to stay in bed until 7am? I give my DD1 (4yo like yours) stickers if we need to re-establish good sleeping. She gets to put them on her bed, so it's a permanent reminder. I show her them the night before, so she knows what she's aiming for. Or if stickers won't do it for your DD, how about a bag of little pressies (much as you may have done when toilet training - I know I did!). If you go this route, let her see what goes into the bag - little books, hair clips, playdough - then she gets one if she stays in bed until 7am.

You don't say what time she goes to bed, but could you move it earlier on the days when she gets up early? Or persuade her to have a nap? I'm guessing by her age that she must be at school, but at the weekends, she could play catch-up. Even half an hour quiet time in her room, lying in bed, maybe with some books will calm her down and break the cycle.

Otherwise can you change her routine? My DD1 did this kind of thing last summer (possibly triggered by the arrival of her sister a few months previously - is there something similar going on for you, I wonder?). I was, like you, at the end of my tether, crying about it, wondering how I would cope and where my lovely DD had gone. It sorted itself out when she started pre-school in September. She needed the change.

If it is to do with latent jealousy over the arrival of your DS, can you have some special time with just her? When your DH gets home, take her out on her bike, or do some jigsaws. She may be feeling that she used to have all of you, and now she doesn't. It's a difficult thing for a four year old to deal with (and verbalise, hence the bad behaviour).

I hope some of this helps you. But it will pass. Honestly. And you sound like you're doing a brilliant job in very trying circumstances.

Has it got worse since the baby arrived?

Wonder if her behaviour could be linked to the disruption in her routine, and the being 'displaced'?

What if you get her one of those bunny clocks and tell her when it is OK to get up. If she wakes prior to that, she must stay in her room and read, etc. Might push her toward falling back asleep if she knows she can't get up and begin her day.

Or, tell her that if she wakes before X in the morning, she'll need to take a rest/nap in the middle of the day as she isn't getting enough sleep. And then enforce it - as you presumably can if she is on Easter break.

Does she sleep differently (better) on days when she's had a lot of physical exercise/activity?

What time does she go to bed usually?
Was it earlier or later on the days she slept until 7am?

If she is going earlier than 7/8pm then maybe she just has had enough sleep by 5am. You could try(if you havent already) keeping her up until 9pm or so.
If she is having trouble remembering to stay in bed until you get her up there are many and various 'tricks' to help her stay in bed awake/napping until its time to get up- do a search ,there are loads on this site.

However if she is staying up until 9ish ,knows how to entertain herself ,knows the rules for mornings in your house and still comes out of her room then this is a problem that needs to be tackled asap.

The first thing is to return her to her room stating the correct time for getting up.No shouting or arguing -simply stating the rules.You may have to do this many times. Not to be tackled during a busy week. Set aside a period when you are both at home so that work related stress isnt a factor. And go for it with determination . You both (plus any interested relatives who may chip in with opinions ) have to be on the same wavelength here though. She will see if there are weaknesses and play on them.

Good luck

Thanks for your support.

I can honestly say we have tried every strategy you can come up with for trying to get her to sleep for longer. Nothing and I really mean nothing works. Alarm clocks, sticker charts, a bag of things to play with when she wakes early, rewards, punishments, returning her to bed with no conversations, ignoring it. It's hopeless!

Staying up later at night makes no difference, she still gets up at 5am. On the days she recently slept 'til 7am, she went to bed at exactly the same time as normal.

DH works shifts but when he does have an early start he is very quiet. The problem is DD is already awake, hears him moving around and thinks oh good, time to get up. DH and I have always worked as a team on this - she knows what is expected but it's like talking to a brick wall. It's so depressing.

The problem has been going on long before I was even expecting DS so I genuinely think the behaviour issues are more related to lack of sleep than jealousy. Aside from that DH & I both make sure we spend time 1:1 with DD so that she's not left out.

bigbadbear it sounds like you know what I'm going through now. I'm glad your situation resolved itself. She only started school in Jan so I can't see any significant changes to her routine in the forseeable future.

Just keep going - be firm and fair - and it will resolve. It sounds as though your DD has had a lot of change in a short time with the arrival of her brother and starting school, so hopefully she will work it through and come out the other side quite soon. When I stopped worrying about it, and just started laughing about it (not at DD1, but just pointing out the ridiculousness of the situation then distracting her by pointing out something else - "Look your sister is trying to build a tower!") it would break the strops at the very least. That way she had a way out, and I felt better that I hadn't cried/shouted/put her on time out.

In the meantime, be kind to yourself and if you need time out, take it. If your mum or sister will mind her for a few hours so you can draw breath and prepare for the next onslaught, then ask them.

Good luck.

Have you tried wake to sleep? Have no idea if it works for older to children, have a feeling it does. There are a few threads on it on here if you search.

Sympathies btw, my 2.9 year old is hideous if she wakes up before 7 so I can't imagine how bad she'd be if it was before 5.

I found blackout lining essential (ie proper dark room, esp. in summer).

And asking family to help out occasionaly is a good idea too.

Try getting a break sometimes.

Also, My tricky DS1 at that age always needed a good amount of physical activity for him to be "tired in a nice way" (as opposed to being tired in a cranky way from being indoors too much, and watching too much telly, which is how we lived before).

Also need to manage food carefully, ie meals at set time, and not too much in terms of sugary drinks and sweet treats.

(tired+hungry=hell). I found at this age you need to plan the day a bit, with "downtime" and active time, and routine.

And then bit by bit they grow out of it, honestly!

thanks chandon we have blackout curtains (always have)

she is kept busy in an occupied way all the time, including periods of calm activity - we we're supposed to be going for a nice long walk this afternoon but her tantrum put paid to that. As if to prove my point, she fell asleep once she calmed down!

a baby gate ? I went to sleep clinic with ds and they said put a baby gate on his door and ignore him

sounds harsh but it worked

any bad behaviour and he gets sent to his room to calm down (hes 3.5)

has improved things no end cause i'm now 39 weeks and my hormones haven't helped matters !

I think you're probably giving her too much attention and praising. She slept until 7 am one morning and you "praised her all day" and "thanked her at bedtime" because her behaviour was much better. That's way over the top. That is behaviour your should expect from her on a daily basis give or take a bit of naughtiness (since she is a child). Don't over praise her otherwise it becomes meaningless. A child will pick on this.

You need to tell her how you expect her to behave and if she doesn't do it what will happen. If she gets up at 5 am you need to tell her that she needs to go back to bed. If she doesn't then she will know what the consequence is. She is nearly 5 years old not 3. The tantrums need to stop.

Why do you need to keep her occupied all the time? A child of that age should be able to entertain themselves for a period of time. Stop giving her so much attention.

At the moment she has all the control and you have none. She knows this. You neeed to be firm and say what you mean.

If she sleeps in later than 5 am you can say to her that she can choose dinner for instance. This gives her a sense of control in a positive way and without all the "you've been a such a good girl" type praising which just becomes an overused statement.

You can also ask her things like "why do you think mummy was happy today?" Yes, that's right you slept past 5am which really helped me. This makes her start to think of the consequences of her actions, which she should be able to do at her age.

As well as blackout curtains, can you ensure there is no light source in her room? Is her room entirely black at night (no night light, no electronic LEDs or any other light source) - that might help.

I sympathise - I have a friend whose DS is like this, up at 5am every day regardless - she is utterly shattered and she only has him! Same issue though - her DH gets up very early to go to work - perhaps it does wake them, however quiet your (and her) DH is.

have you tried putting a clock in her room that shows what time she should get up? we tried even made the clock with a paper plate - failed
shouted, bribed, star charts, begged and pleaded- failed

my ds2 is an early riser, the same age aas yours too, it has been mentioned that summer babies are early risers (not sure i buy into it but it explains a lot in this mad house) we went through six weeks of getting up at 430 the summer he was two. now its half five six every day, again making no difference what time he goes to bed.

we came to the conclusion that he just doesn't need the sleep. we don't give him breakfast before 6 regardless of what time he rises

I feel for you, but not sure what the answer is, if you find out be sure to let me know

Can you give her an afternoon nap on the days se wakes early at the weekend? Just a short one, if she'll do it. Or find a way of having quiet time eg read books or something after lunch?

wow journey that was a tough post to read - in response

I think you're probably giving her too much attention and praising. She slept until 7 am one morning and you "praised her all day" and "thanked her at bedtime" because her behaviour was much better. That's way over the top. That is behaviour your should expect from her on a daily basis give or take a bit of naughtiness (since she is a child). Don't over praise her otherwise it becomes meaningless. A child will pick on this. Ok, I obviously gave the wrong impression - I didn't spend all day saying thank you to her! A couple of times I commented on her good behaviour and at bedtime, I thanked her for the nice day we had spent together. IMO, that's not going overboard.

You need to tell her how you expect her to behave and if she doesn't do it what will happen. If she gets up at 5 am you need to tell her that she needs to go back to bed. If she doesn't then she will know what the consequence is. She is nearly 5 years old not 3. The tantrums need to stop. I agree, she's old enough to know better. That's precisely the problem. I've always been firm but fair with her. I have clear expectations that I stick to. I don't make empty threats. She knows the consequence and carries on anyway - what's the solution to that?

Why do you need to keep her occupied all the time? A child of that age should be able to entertain themselves for a period of time. Stop giving her so much attention. I don't orchestrate everything she does. What I do make sure of is that she's not sitting in front of the tv all day every day. I try to make sure she does some physical activity every day and at home, she is usefully occupied - that doesn't mean I spoon feed her. She's more than capable of keeping herself entertained, which she does.

At the moment she has all the control and you have none. She knows this. not true - and I'm not in denial. If she had all the control, she would have been running amock all afternoon - instead she was punished for her bad behaviour. You neeed to be firm and say what you mean. I do

If she sleeps in later than 5 am you can say to her that she can choose dinner for instance. I can't see this being a practical solution as whenever she's been asked about dinner, she always asks for something we haven't got! Food has never been an issue for us and I'm not running the risk of turning mealtimes into a battleground as well. This gives her a sense of control in a positive way and without all the "you've been a such a good girl" type praising which just becomes an overused statement. Maybe some alternative reward might help, that's certainly something to think about.

You can also ask her things like "why do you think mummy was happy today?" Yes, that's right you slept past 5am which really helped me. This makes her start to think of the consequences of her actions, which she should be able to do at her age. oh believe me we do! She seems to appreciate it at the time but while she's asleep, forgets all about it.

gkys you have my sympathies. I'm hoping DS will be a better sleeper than his sister

iggly I really try but the mere mention of the words 'nap' 'lie down' 'have a little rest' immediately provoke defensive responses of 'I'm not tired' with lots of fake crying. I then have the option of leaving it or having a full on battle to get her in her room.

I did think that might be the case - so maybe just doing more quiet stuff would help. Sounds likes she's tired from school and hopefully it'll get easier with the summer holidays giving her and you some rest.

ok, well I went hardcore with ds this last week to try and get him to poo in his potty. Total tv ban, total treat ban, no sweets, no biscuits anything that you use to reward just nothing. I put a chart up with 4 poos in a potty and then a tv and a paint set at the end of it, he has been pooing for three weeks now in his pants, I was at the end of my tether as he poos at his dads house ! Maybe just repeating yourself no treats untill you can stay in bed. Then just keep repeating mummy would like you to stay in your bed, even if shes playing quietly that would be better.

I totally understand your pain, ds used to get up at 4.30 and it destroyed me

she is of the age where she understands consequences so the treat ban may work best, for other times when shes totally kicking off, put the baby gate on and let her have a massive tantrum, just walk away, don't engage. She will learn to wind down by herself and you can calm yourself by just not being there and trying to argue with her. My ds has gone through phases like this and know knows that I will just put him on th enaughty step, bed and walk off so not to listen to the screaming etc and end up shouting at him.

Promise you it will get better !! They all go through horrible phases and come out the other side