BertieBotts and any other UP parents... please can you help me?

[pookamoo]

I haven't read the book, as a disclaimer first, and sorry if I ramble on a bit.

I do like what I have heard of UP, and DH and I have always tried to be respectful of DD. She is a happy, confident, "well behaved" (whatever that means) if a little bossy 2.5 year old.

I had a slip up with chocolate buttons as "rewards" by the way, which I quickly realised had backfired, and now we are getting on better without them.

For some reason, DD prefers to sleep on the floor. I have no real problem with that, and I am certain it is because she is ready to stop the cot/co-sleeping pattern we are currently in. A new bed is being "watched on ebay, and the plan is to make it really really lovely and hopefully she will want to sleep there.

She really, really needs her afternoon nap. She gets cranky, grumpy and irritable without it, if she hasn't gone to "bed" by about 12.30. Then bedtime is a nightmare in the evening.

Today, she wouldn't accept that it was nap time. She has had a lot of late nights recently, and with the holidays, has been sleeping mostly in the car and on journeys. Instead of us all going out as a family this afternoon, DH and I spent our whole afternoon trying to get her to go for her nap. She fell asleep at 4.25. We've not got anything achieved, but have had a very grumpy little girl and we both feel very guilty.

My question has to do with consequences. How do I explain the consequences of her actions to a 2.5 year old. She can't really understand the concept of "because you have spent the whole afternoon in a strop, we haven't been able to go and do our nice activity, now everyone is a bit sad."
I would like to know WHY she doesn't want to go to bed, but she can't really explain it.

Can you help me out at all? What suggestions do you have? A friend has said rather unhelpfully that her daughter would have been "on the naughty step" for this behaviour, but that's not a route DH and I want to take.

Thanks in advance and more info available if it helps!

That's really interesting - I've know children who have had a phase of floor sleeping too. I made nests for them (of cushions or duvets or whatever). I didn't make a big deal out of it, and it passed soon enough. A cot mattress on the floor can be a lovely halfway house between cot/co-sleeping and bed, and is much cheaper than buying a bed you're not sure will be used [cgrin]

There is that horrid stage, isn't there, when children sometimes nap and sometimes don't, and if they don't then the witching hour is witchin', baby. How about going somewhere in the car? If they fall asleep, fab, that's the nap done. If they don't, then at least you are out of the house and not arguing with the child about going to bed.

Or else, go to bed yourself with whatever soothing stuff she likes - books, music, favourite toys - and chill out there having a rest without expectation of unconsciousness, and see what happens? But I'm guessing you did all that.

A big rumpus before trying to sleep? Pillow fights/wrestling/ whatever really helps some people wind down.

I'm not really the person to help here - some of my relatives are terrible sleepers whatever I try to do about it, and some of them never minded whether they had a nap or not, they were equally sunny. I don't think there's a single solve-the-sleep-problem answer coming your way.

I'm not Bertie Botts or particularly UP but a couple of things struck me about your post. First of all, she could be getting ready to drop her nap - my elder 2 started fighting their naps a few months before they dropped them. They clearly still needed them but couldn't be persuaded to take them. If that's the case, there's not a lot for it but to grit your teeth and bear it, I don't know about you but I find trying to get a baby/child off for a nap incredibly stressful. I always used to put a time limit on it - however much you feel you can bear before you start feeling cross. For me it's about 5 minutes!! I wouldn't have spent all afternoon on it, you must have been really hacked off by the time she slept. If she really does need the sleep then take her for drive after giving x amount of time to trying to get her off in her bed.

There's really no point overthinking this - babies and small children fight sleep because they just do! Sometimes it's because they are overtired/over stimulated but often it's not any discernible reason. I certainly wouldn't punish her or even attempt to explain 'consequences'. She's not being naughty here, she probably doesn't know herself why she can't sleep. You don't need to feel guilty either. One day of no activity is not the end of the world!

Why do you want to explain the consequences?

i think she may just be getting ready to drop the nap tbh
IME they have days where they simply won't nap, then you'll find that the next day they'll nap again because they're worn out. it can be a bit hellish, but it does pass

I don't think you need to/can explain consequences like that to a child so young, other than saying "dd, you need a sleep otherwise you'll feel too tired for dinner"... but don't expect that to achieve anytrhing

i don't know why your friend thinks she needs a punishment just because she doesn't want to nap or is the punishment because it has spoiled the afternoon?
because i think if you accepted that today she just didn't wnat a nap, and went and did the activity anyway then it'd have been a lot easier.
you may then have needed to bring her dinner and bedtime forward a bit... but that happens anyway when they drop naps

I'm certain she still needs it, she just gets so weary without it. I'm 23 weeks pg, so not got a huge amount of energy at the moment, nap time very good for me too, although I appreciate I can't force it.

She's been a bit like this for her entire life!

My DD1 is not a sleeper either! She went through this phase a couple of weeks ago, she was really fighting her usual nap and being grouchy all day. I would take her out for walks to get her tired enough to nap but it didn't always work. She started taking naps later and later in the day which did mess her up a bit and make her quite grouchy but now she has decided she doesn't need a nap at all, just an earlier bed time and it's made the world of difference! It was quite a gradual process over a few weeks but I think it is easier not to force it. That might not be very useful, sorry

She's dropping her nap, simple as that. She may still need it, but may not actually take it every day (so maybe 2 days with nap, day without or similar).

I am and that you want to do any explaining etc here- she's 2, she didn't feel sleepy, you and your DH made a huge deal and wasted 4 hours in trying to put her to bed...er...next time, just take her out as you planned to. It wasn't her fault, fgs.

And your friend is unhinged- naughty step for refusing to have a nap?

...but we couldn't take her anywhere, she would have had a horrible time because she was so tired.

We realise we wasted the day, but there wasn't anything else we could do. Nothing got done around the house and all we had was a grumpy little girl who is now still up because eventually she conked out at 4pm.

It's really the UP take on this that I would appreciate. How is it supposed to work in these circumstances?

And as for an earlier bed time... when DD has gone without a nap, we've tried a bed time from 6pm. That usually takes about 3 hours.
However, when she's had a sleep in the afternoon from about 12.30 or 1 for anything up to 2 hours, she'll have a bath time routine from about 7 and be asleep by 8.30, which is good going for her, although sometimes it's as late as 10... again, what's the UP take on this?

Am not a fan of UP, but I think a compatible strategy would be that you figure out what caused the conflict and think of some tactics to try next time to prevent that conflict (these may not work quickly, you could have several more episodes like today before you crack it). Tactics could mean 1) shifting your tolerance of her grumpiness, 2) going the extra mile to make her nap (take her for a drive?), 3)expecting more of a rest and less of a nap, 4) not planning things for her after her nap time when you dont' know if she will nap, etc. You don't explain consequences because A) she's too little anyway and B) it could be interpreted as punishment (trying to make her feel bad about what happened).

I am not into UP but I would probably aim for a combination of all 1)-4) (anything for an easy life, really).

my approach (which is UP btw) would have been to still take her out, or, if she was really too tired to do whatever it was, then postpone it til the next day or whatever or do something different

when they're dropping naps this is just wht it's like unfortunately, so you have to work around it

So do we think it's really nap dropping time, or just that the holidays have been a bit disrupted? I can't see how they can go from needing 2 hours a day to nothing at all overnight.

We didn't not take her out as a punishment, it's just that by the time she eventually went to sleep, it was too late so we couldn't go. Had she gone down to sleep at her normal time it would all have fitted in.

With both my two we have had the situation around 2yrs - 2.5yrs that they nap for 2 hours some days and don't have a nap at all another day (and get really grouchy all afternoon). I really agree that it is just your child in this phase of stopping napping. With both of mine it has been a hard phase - partly, you yourself need the nap and partly they definitely do. But, I believe there is no way around it. The good thing is that the phase doesn't last too long (in my experience). And when they come out of the phase, they often get to sleep better at night.
With my dd, when she was in this phase, she was in a nursery with two absolutely fantastic, very experienced, very competent carers. They both told me that they really believed there was nothing to do to get her to nap - just have a rest - reading or something.

Can someone explain UP? I'm not familiar.

Hi niamh29 See here for more on UP which is "Unconditional Parenting".

I am interested in it as I can't see that a 2.5 year old can necessarily understand traditional "reward / punishment" kind of discipline. For example, DD is very difficult to get to settle at night. Some would say try a reward chart with stickers etc, but for that to start working, she needs to understand the concept of "if X then Y" which would also mean she needs to do X in order to experience Y so that she gets the idea. UP goes further than rewards in terms of stickers etc, and as far as I understand, it is partly about showing the child that you love them unconditionally, and that your love isn't given as a reward or reserved as a punishment.

It's difficult.

In our case, we've never really actually had to "discipline" DD, we can distract her usually, and she only tends to be difficult when she's getting tired.

Oh god I sound so PFB. Maybe I will be beating DC2 with a stick when it comes along

(That was a joke, I promise!)

Seriously though, there is a whole long thread about UP going on at the moment, and it does seem to work for some people, so I just wondered what the approach would be in my circumstances.

This is all said after a 3.5 hour stint on bed time tonight.

What if you say to her, ok, you don't want to nap. So it is rest time. I don't mind what you do but it needs to be quiet and in your room
please. And mummy is going to have a rest too. And teddy.

The trouble is sometimes they can be tired without being sleepy. So if you try to get them to nap or go to bed for the night when they are tired without being sleepy, it can backfire. If you think she still needs a nap or at least needs one every other day during the 'dropping the nap' phase, then you might have to watch her really closely to get the sleepy moment. It might only last 5 mins!

But you might find that no matter how tired she is, she won't nap and you have to instill quiet time. I was still napping (because of being busy with DD in the night) when DS dropped his nap. Quite often quiet time would end up with me having a doze while he played, watched TV or listened to a story CD near me.

Neither of mine ever shortened their naps before dropping them. I'm no sleep expert but I imagine it's something to do with sleep cycles.

If an outing is planned and your child is the kind that can't fight sleep in the car, it can help to get in the car when they are tired, drive earlier than you were planning to and then just read your book in the car park until DC wakes up naturally. Of course this is easier in France where you rarely pay for parking!

I would go with the drive option or just bringing the pushchair and letting her sleep in that if she's tired. I've never really gone with the 'have to be home for nap/bed at a certain time' thing. It's a bit too restrictive for my liking :) if they're tired they'll sleep wherever.

I am a bit confused about why you think the un-UP way of deciding not to nap in your head is to punish, you seem a little bit fixated on the UP way when there have been lots of good suggestions on here about what you could try which don't involve punishment.

a 2 hour nap at 2.5yr is good going, my DS was down to 1 hour by this stage but compared to most of his friends we were really lucky with that. Now DS doesn't nap I allow him 30minutes TV time after lunch to unwind (and so I can eat a sarnie in peace) I do understand what you mean about them being grouchy later on but I try to explain to my 34yr old DH that if he goes to bed late then he is going to be tired the next day and he does grasp the concept but still ignores it so I am not sure there is a lot you can do about a 2.5yr old.

I'm not really fixated on UP, I am a bit desperate though! I thought after reading some of the other UP thread, I would see what their take is on something which at first glance appears to be a "battle".

Today DD has gone for her sleep on the armchair in her bedroom, absolutely fine by me. She is snoring away and catching flies!

All the suggestions are welcome, by the way! I can't really drive her around just to get her to sleep because of the cost of fuel, and we live on a very, very steep hill so pushchair is a bit of a last resort (she usually walks) as I am having a bit of trouble with my back at the moment due to being 23 weeks pg and shaped like an enormous spacehopper!

Sleep books reckon that there's some biological basis to 2 hour naps, as even children who ideally need to nap for less than 2 hours will sleep for the full 2 hours if allowed. So the fact that she's been sleeping for the whole 2 hours doesn't necssarily mean that she needed a nap that long.

Could you experiment with a shorter nap and see if it has any effect on bedtime?

My 16 m.o. sleeps for 2 hours and if he doesn't wake from it until 2.30, it would be 8.30 - 9pm before he can go to sleep at bedtime.

I have been in your position, op, and sympathise. I would either have taken her for a drive to get her to nap ( worked for ds), or accepted that there would be no nap unless he fell asleep en route and gone out regardless. I speak from experience having wasted many an afternoon trying to 'get' ds to nap - I won't do this with number 2 unless we have something on in the evening or it's ill or something!