Is this a big deal or not?

[WinkyWinkola]

My ds1 (aged 6) and dd (aged 4) went to camp today. Just for one day.

When I went to pick them up, ds1 came running over to me straight away and said dd was upset and crying. She had bumped her head but she was ok. No problem.

But then the day's events started coming out on the way home, over supper etc. Dd said that there had been a "mean boy" there who wanted to fight her at lunch and that ds1 had said he should and was shouting for him to fight her. She said she ran away to the camp leaders.

Later on, at the end of the day, she said it happened again so she clouted the "mean boy" with a stick and all the other children including ds1 were shouting that she'd be in trouble, they were going to tell etc. I told her she wasn't in trouble for that.

Ds1 has admitted he told the boy to fight dd. I asked him why he wanted that and he couldn't tell me.

I am so upset. Not only is he lacking in instinct to protect his sister, he actively seeks to find ways to hurt her. It just seems to twisted and downright vindictive to me.

I cannot think what is the right thing to do about it. I wasn't there but I cannot let ds1 believe it's ok to encourage other people to hurt his sister or anyone. I have told him that I'm very sad and very disappointed in his behaviour but I don't think he gives a sh*t really. I'm sick of him and the negativity he brings into our family.

Gosh WW, I am sorry that you are upset.
IMO this is a big deal, yes. He sounds very angry and his behaviour is horrible (sorry - I know that's a hard thing to read but I believe it's true).
I am not sure what to suggest without knowing the background better.
Is there a history of angry behaviour?

Bit of background here, harpsichord

They're all in bed now. I couldn't think of what to do so I put them all to bed and cried in the bathroom. I think ds1 heard me crying but I don't care either anymore.

I'm so worried about how he's going to turn out as an adult.

I would call it a big deal. I think that you could try pushing more for some outside help. He seems a very angry DC. Sorry-not much help. I think that if you can get help you can turn him around, he is still very young.

I'm going back to the G.P. to talk about ds1 as soon as school starts again. I can't talk to the G.P. in front of ds1, obviously.

The thing is, as soon as I start talking about it in real life, I start crying and crying like the stress of the last few years just pours out and I'm unable to stop.

So I never talk about it to anyone in rl but dh and even then not much because we just feel despair and go round in circles, not knowing what to suggest to help him anymore.

There must be many in the same position.

I might write it down and take that with me to the G.P. in case I can't stop blubbing.

I just wonder what makes him tick. But then again, I almost don't want to know.

Writing it all down is a good idea. I'm sure that you should be able to get help when you are under such stress, I would imagine that DS is just picking up on it and it is his way of reacting. Hopefully someone will come along on here who can be of real use to you.

WW, it sounds like you have had a really difficult time and that you are coping incredibly well.
I would def push for a referral and speak to the GP again. It does sound like you need some professional support and, for ds, some counselling and expert assistance to challenge and to change his behaviour.
I am sorry for this difficult situation you find yourself in. I hope you are getting lots of support yourself. You sound like a fantastic mother to both your children.

Oh no, I'm not a good mother at all.

After I found out all about today's events, I went into my bedroom for a deep breath and to get the baby's pyjamas and fresh nappy when I heard the baby screaming his head off and ds1 laughing.

Ds2 had bashed his head on the dc's bedroom door frame. Ds1 only stopped laughing when he saw me. I picked up ds2 and then smacked ds1's bottom and told him to get to bed. I don't even know if ds1 was responsible for that but the laughing cut me to the quick. I shouldn't have left ds2 in that room but he was literally 3 metres away from me but perhaps too close to ds1.

Great. Just great. So, now he's got a smacked bottom which hurt I'm sure and he'll probably be brooding on how to exact revenge on his sister whom he regards as a tell tale.

Dh wants him to go to boarding school because he thinks he will benefit greatly from it given how well he currently behaves and performs at school. Dh also thinks that it will mean our other dcs will benefit because they'll get more attention from us, be less wary of their older brother and generally be more relaxed.

Oh wow, that sounds so hard. WW, don't send your little boy to boarding school. He sounds awful, but we are all awful when we are unhappy. Write it all down, do a web search for family therapists in your area, beg your GP to refer you and ask him how you can self-refer for private therapists (cheaper than boarding school). Ring Parentline for some advice too. You really do need some proper help fast - and you all deserve it.

Hi. Your ds could have ODD-oppositional defiant disorder. Some people will say there is no such condition, but there is, and it goes waaay beyond a dc not doing as they are told now and again, or,normal testing of boundaries.

These dc are exhausting, and everything is a battle of wills. It does seem as if they delight in others misery, but whether that is the case, or, they just cant help it, I dont know.
Along with the defiance, the dc can also be aggressive-my ds was/is, particulaly,(sp),towards siblings, my ds is now 15yrs, has a number of conditions,and can also be violent towards adults now, sometimes leading to restraints.
Your ds is the same age my ds was, when the aggression really started. My ds was/is academically bright, and managed well at school until the age of 10/11yrs, then he couldnt manage in that environment any longer.
He attends a specialist placement Secondary school.
Now, is the time to enlist some profess. help for your ds, while he is still young, whatever condition he may have. You will have to insist he be seen by someone, for his sake and his siblings and you and dh.
Regarding the response you got from CAMHS. Sometimes, CAMHS and Peadiatrics will play "political football" with dc-particularly young ones. They wont take ownership for the dc. But, that is NOT your problem. You could go via the GP for referral, or write/ring the Peadiatrician you saw previously, explain how bad things are and ask him to re-refer you to CAMHS.

CAMHS are quite frankly talking b--s re refusing to see your ds cos he has no dx!Their job is to assess and dx if appropriate. If you get that response again, write and complain to the Clinical Lead of your local CAMHS and the Head of your PCT. Shout for help now, and shout loud! Good Luck.

Bigpants, I have read a book called The Defiant Child and it is him to a tee except for his perfect behaviour at school.

Could you get more help through the school? Make an appointment to see the Head as soon as you get back and tell him/her your worries and see what help is available?