Depressed 6 year old?

[WinkyWinkola]

I don't understand him.

He is the most defiant child ever e.g. Will deliberately slow right down on a crossing because I've asked him to hurry up as green man has started flashing.

He seeks to cause disruption to stories, painting etc.

Will have the most enormous tantrums at the slightest thing. He spends a lot of time crying. I think his stress levels must be very high.

Seeks to hurt his 4 year old sister and 18 month old brother.

He never knows when to stop even if the others are crying.

He's absolutely fine at school. Co operative, hard working, bright.

I've been to G.P. Got referred to paed who found nothing physically wrong but agreed his behaviour needed attention. Referred him to CAMBHS who wrote to me saying that they wouldn't see him as he hadn't been diagnosed with anything.

We have tried positive reinforcement all this year. Rewarding every single aspect of good behaviour with a marble. It's not working now. He doesn't care about the prizes anymore.

The effect on our family life is awful. Stressful, waiting for the next hysteria or opportunity to be be defiant. I hate the stress. We are all unhappy and tense. I know
family life is never a bed of roses but the level of unhappiness is unbearable. The stuff he comes out with like hating me, wanting to kick me or his sister in the face, even killing me with a gun. Where is this hate and anger coming from?

I guess I just needed to vent spleen and feel sorry for myself. It's terrible to say but I look forward to when it is not my responsibility to get him to school on time or to watch him have another red mist tantrum.

WW - poor you. No pearls of wisdom I'm afraid - just wanted to feel sorry for you.

My DS 6 has had worrying phases of "I am not happy with myself" but nothing along the lines of yours ... But my DS is my baby (DD 7) so a good cuddle and tickles and loads of TLC usually sorts him out in a day or 2.

Doubt you have the energy left for that after looking after your others.

Sounds like a good case of attention-seeking too ... poor wee man.

Hope you find the inner strength to keep up the good job.

Do you think he could be craving your attention and trying very negative ways of trying to get it? I'm just wondering whether setting aside some regular 1-2-1 time with him might help. Can anyone look after the younger two whilst you do something with him?

Thanks chaps. Yes I think he does need some one to one time but he prefers his dad massively.

Every morning I wake up either bright and breezy thinking today will be a good day and it just never is or I wake up not wanting to get out of bed because I know he'll throw a wobbly with the first hour of the day usually because I've said he can't play on my ph

On my phone until he gets dressed. Have taken him to school in his pyjamas a few times now.

Dh says he was meant ro be an only child.

It's very hard. I find it hard to even want to touch him sometimes as his behaviour is such.

I imagine it must be hard for a highly sensitive child to have TWO younger siblings. My take on it would be that it's about the sibling issue, especially if he is ok at school/ better with his Dad. Maybe he's still really angry with you about it. If he really plays YOU up, it's probably because he craves your love most of all. Your youngest is only 10 months so it is early days. I think you may just have to push through this phase and keep reassuring him that he is as loved as the others. Not sure how long it will take him to settle down, but when I had twins it easily took my ds1 a year to start behaving himself.

Hard as it is, he will pick up when you're stressed by him or 'forcing' yourself to love him. He'll spot when your love and affection for the other two just 'overflows' genuinely. Is he good at picking up on your emotions (my ds1 is super at this, he always gets stressed when I am stressed). Maybe he's testing how much you really do love him. If you get angry/ annoyed/ push him away...well, he was right all along - you DO prefer the other 2.

All this is just 'theories' of course. (I was an older sibling!!!)

x posts with your dh's comment. Hit the nail on the head probably!

PS. how about he's allowed to play on your phone until school, when he is COMPLETELY ready? Dressed, shoes on, teeth cleaned, bag ready etc.

he is testing you to see how far he can go. whilst i'm sure he is not autistic you may want to check out 'handling' techniques used for kids that have similar behaviour. use rewards/praise/ ignore (unless literally dangerous) his 'naughtyness', use traffic light system: red for challenging behaviour - deal with it when dangerous, amber for beginning to challenge - put in place strategies like distraction, and green which is when calm, talk through what happened and suggest different ways to behave. give him a distraction box with a couple of special things. give him special time with you an activity each day, painting, baking and then again at bedtime, story time?

good luck, you are not alone, check out challenging behaviour websites and on youtube some good stuff too.

Maybe ask you GP or school for a referral to a child psychologist? If it has been going on for a while you might just need a little bit of help to sort it out. He might need someone to talk to who is only there for him. It sounds like he has some kind of behaviour issues related to his younger siblings, if he is hurting them then they should take you seriously!

Well he definitely needs help. He has just carved a vicious design into my bedside table with a biro because I told him he couldn't play on the computer after his rages yesterday. On Friday he stabbed holes into a cardboard box full of presents because he was angry. Damaged the gifts. Not sure what he used for that.

I had a daughter like this, very, very disobedient with tantrums, violence. lots of crying etc. She was also asked to leave most activities because she led "revolutions" or was cheeky/wouldn't do what the teacher asked (she was highly articulate). My husband and I despaired, he was worried she would turn out a drug addict be totally out of control in her teens.
She had a very bad birth and we were told (at her birth) that we needed to be prepared for brain damage etc - not sure if this had anything to do with it all. She was also ill with head to toe eczema and constant chest infections her first 18 months so pretty miserable and clingy. She has an older sister and we had a baby when she was about 2 - although she loved her I think perhaps she was angry at not having our full attention. Friends opined that she was ADHD and needed ritalin - it was awful. One friend said DD just needed "love" and cuddled her a lot until DD give her a mouthful of vitriol one day and friend said that DD would be outside her flat ready for pick up and not to call again.
I really sympathise with you and I agree that rewards don't work that well after a while.

My DD is now a teen and a calmer and more lovely child would be hard to find. Children love her and she can get on with the most difficult child and is buddied up and praised at school for taking into her group the most outcast. We are so proud of her.She has channelled her anger first in late primary school into animal rights and more recently human rights and feminism.Things can change - so take heart.

We are still not sure exactly what turned things around but here are some things we did.

I read a book called The Explosive Child (American but talked a lot of sense not sure if it is still in print). I stayed calm during her outbursts (no matter what she said) and quietly but firmly got her home - even if it meant my other child's activity was curtailed. I stopped stressing if her tantrums, lying on the ground etc were making us late. "Don't sweat the small stuff "was the main message I took from books on the subject - so if she wanted to go out in her pyjamas -I let her (and took her regular clothes in a bag), if she trashed the bedroom I told her off but didn't get riled and thus escalate things. We disciplined her for breaking things, hitting etc but gave her praise for any good behaviour. I also took her out more on a 1-1 at weekends (when husband around) just to the library or park or for a hot chocolate in a cafe and it helped us become good friends again. I made sure I gave her spontaneous cuddles and snuggled up to her on the sofa smiled at her etc (even when I was still annoyed at her)- I think you forget to do that enough when you are so cross with your child.I also think you need to be consistent in your discipline approach (I think that's why although I hate naughty chair's that supernanny works in the TV SHOW)
I realised I had been trying a method for a maybe a month and then because it hadn't worked I was reading a new book and switching tactics. She also needed more structure in her life (we were pretty laid back people back then)- so we always woke up at 7.30, got clothes on first (to prevent trouble later) and teeth cleaned then breakfast etc and made sure she had plenty of exercise (sounds like a puppy) every day at the park.

Good luck, things can improve

Oh, Winky I think I know exactly how you feel. DS1 (7) is so much like this, I've asked myself the same question (about hate & anger) time and time again lately. He's also soiling every single day and has done for 4 years, although there is a medical side to this.
I've been looking into solutions as well of late as it's killing our family life and my PND/anxiety goes downhill (or I'm affecting him, it's hard to know really). It hit rock bottom last weekend when he went so mental I had to call DP to come back from town to sort him out. I was sobbing so hard I could hardly speak. DP, bless him, booked a night away for us both at a B&B on the weekend and we spent the day together. It was lovely. Unfortunately he kicked off as soon as we returned :(
What is he like on his own, that's the question I've been asked a lot lately. And generally speaking, he's an angel without the others around and he has my full attention. Is that the case with your DS? Mine just gets so hyped/stressed/angry if one of the other kids (others are 4yo and 2.6yo dts) so much as sings a little nursery rhyme. Today he seemed to yell at one of them every 2 mins until I was wanting to cry.
I think the book haggis mentioned might be worth reading, hadn't come across that one. But the things that seem to help right now is being very clear with him about boundaries, when things happen and what time, rigid routine (which I'm struggling to stick to!), not allowing interruptions from the other dc when he's talking to me and most of all 121 time with me or his dad (mainly me at present). I think he's also picking up a great deal on my PND, anxiety and frequent panic attacks.
It is really hard to show love to a child that just throws everything back in your face. So I started leaving little notes for him, and he's really appreciating that. I think it's going to take a lot more work than a few notes though and we're looking at a Child Assessment Framework for him although we've gone via CAMS before already and got nowhere. Or a child psychologist. Overthemill is right about the autism/aspergers stuff - I've got a few books lately and I can definitely recognise the behaviours there although I see no evidence that ds1 is on the spectrum. Wish I had been able to find the time to instigate a red light/green light system so far, I'm so exhausted from the whole thing. Complete and thorough sympathies from me on the whole big mess of it

My ds1 hasn't gone too far as yet (only 5), though he is constantly sent out of class at school and is behind because he will not sit still (can focus when HE wants to, but not otherwise). He also struggles to listen and follow instructions BIG TIME.

Thanks for your post haggis, it's really helpful.

about your ds1 and what a stress it must be for you. Another thought about 1-2-1 time: I think it's really important for Dads to have it too. Ds1 gets clingy to me and doesn't want his Dad (then Dad gets upset), but this weekend they spent loads of time together - took bikes to get fixed, went cycling - and he has been such a happy and (coincidentally!) well behaved little boy. Even my friend who takes him to school on Mondays noticed and commented.

Winky, I think it does help to think "it's not their fault" as it were. They are doing this because they are angry/ character stuff/ birth or whatever, basically things beyond anyone's control, including their own. At times I really struggle to love my ds1, but it helps me when I think he's not doing this 'on purpose' and to feel sad for them, that they are obviously going through something major.

link to Eplosive Child Book

www.amazon.co.uk/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Thanks for all messages and advice. So supportive. Thank you.

I too struggle to love my DS on days like today when I couldn't get him to stop kicking stones at his playdate.

Will have a look at that book.

Thanks for the link haggis, myself and dd are dyspraxic and ds is soo short tempered but I don't think dyspraxic.
He could just by frustrated with me and dd being so slow sometimes but will be interested to look at the book as he starts school in September and I'd really like to help him get his temper under control before then.

It's interesting that he behaves perfectly at school yet is a nightmare at home. That suggests that there's something about his environment at home that's driving/ reinforcing the behaviour (not blaming you by the way). That's a positive sign because it means that if the right things are changed at home, it should affect his behaviour.

You talked about giving him a marble for every instance of good behaviour. That is not going to work long-term because he is going to lose interest in the marbles over time (as do humans with most things). The aim of a positive reinforcement system is to pair the physical reward with lots of loving, positive attachment-laden praise (e.g., lots of cuddles, praise, saying you love him and what a wonderful child he is for behaving so well, how proud you are of him), and then fade out the physical reward/ make it harder to obtain so that eventually the praise is what the child is striving for/ getting for good behaviour. Did you do that or just keep giving him a marble - "Fantastic good behaviour, you get another marble!!!"

Another poster said: "It is really hard to show love to a child that just throws everything back in your face." That is very true and so it would be hard to try to switch to being physically affectionate and loving in such an exaggerated way when your child's behaviour is causing you so much anguish most of the time. It is possible that at the moment, what he is getting from his bad behaviour is your attention/ distress - he sees that it's a way of "winding you up", to get you focusing on him and showing that what he does affects you, even if it's in a negative way. I wonder what would happen if you ignored his minor misbehaviour and became more dispassionate/ robotic about disciplining worse behaviour - still punished him, but in a very non-emotional, functional, non-physical, "I don't want anything to do with you when you behave like this" type of way? So you're pairing your attention with his good behaviour rather than bad.

These are all ideas, I think getting a good child psychologist to help you put a system in place would be an excellent and important step. Maybe ask before you start seeing them what experience/ success they have in dealing with children with persistent conduct problems at home, what their theoretical frameworks are. I am a child psychologist by the way. My ideas are coming from psychologists like Mark Dadds who are experts in remediating child behaviour problems when standard programs don't work. I think this kind of book would be extremely relevant to you, even though it's designed for practitioners.

www.therapybookshop.com/page2/121446.html

Pigglesworth, thank you very much for your advice. I'll be reading your recommendation.

And my h totally blames me for the way my DS is. I should stay away from him, he says.

Hiya, I am having the same problem with my son,he is 7 its a relief to read that I am not alone.....
Have to say I have found haggis01's comment so helpful, I too am going to have a look at that book.
To have something I can look at for answers, as at the moment I am feeling totally clueless and to be honest so useless as a mum, my husband is also getting to the point where he is struggling to know whats best also....
I am so with you in that everyday feels like a battle and you can feel so deflated before your feet have touched the floor for a new day.
Chin up, lets hope we can get through this dare I say it "phase" dont you find you live your life through "phases" when kids are involved!!? :)

i totally understand you winkywinkola, have similar situation with my dd (7) and it's affecting our family life too, i was in tears today, could not stop crying, feeling like a failed mother who shouts all the time as well as feeling and looking stressed. i try to tell her that her behaviour towards her 4.6 yr old bother will obviously affect his behaviour and his friendships, but it doesnt sink in with her. She teases him alot, and i don't want him thinking that it's normal to be teased all the time, it's not fair on him. I totally understand where you are coming from.

and yes, my dd is a star pupil at school, in all the top groups and never gets told off. she saves her bad behaviour for home i think!